Preconditioning

[Stu]

I was in a UK clothing store yesterday with my wife looking through outfits for our grandchildren. We were standing near two women with pushchairs (strollers) and a boy aged around four. A garment caught his eye which he lifted off the rail. It had a design on it which I recognised as a fashionable cartoon dog called Bluey, beloved of infants of both sexes. I thought it was a tee-shirt. He handed it to his mother who looked at it for a moment, but I heard her say "Oh no. This is a nightdress" and she promptly hung it back on the rail. The little boy whined - I couldn't make out what he said - but I did hear his mum's response as they walked away - an irritated "It's for GIRLS!"

It was a long tee-shirt labelled as a nightdress. Had it been six inches shorter, there would have been no issue. Mad.

[Seb]

And for such a stupid thing to. Its not like he is going to go out in a nightdress either, its a pyjamas... Some people are just way to afraid of being judged.

[denimini]

Poor little boy. That is formative stuff.

[Modoc]

I agree that as an adult, each man is responsible for his own misgivings and decisions about his clothing choices. I believe it's safe to say that the conditioning rests as much on the shoulders of females who don't want their sons to grow up to be "girly" as much as it is on men.

[Modoc]

I agree that as an adult, each man is responsible for his own misgivings and decisions about his clothing choices. I believe it's safe to say that the conditioning rests as much on the shoulders of females who don't want their sons to grow up to be "girly" as much as it is on men.

[Stu]

I do blame the mother, but of course the retailers bear some responsibility. They unnecessarily label such garments as "GIRLS" and, in doing so, they might as well write on big red letters: "NOT FOR BOYS!" because that's how it would be understood. And this applies to big stores that like to present themselves as progressive!

My wife reminded me that one of my nephews, when he was about six or seven, would never, for a period at least, sleep in pyjamas or shorts because he didn't like the feeling of anything constricting around his waist. Instead, he would be allowed to borrow one of his dad's oversized shirts for bed. If retailers had any sense, they would sniff a gap in the market here which they could tap into with a simple change of wording from GIRLS' to CHILDREN's, and shove a few garments onto the boys' rails.

[crfriend]

Poor little boy. That is formative stuff.

And this is how it all begins. It's actually quite tragic when you think about it.

[robehickman]

We (people collectively) really need to stop doing this.

[crfriend]

We (people collectively) really need to stop doing this.

Have you any assertion on the odds of that actually happening -- that we will be able to pivot everybody neatly and nicely so we stop beating people up who "look differently"? I do, and it's not an encouraging picture based on my life experience. Because it's roughly, "Nil".

[Barleymower]

Poor little boy. That is formative stuff.

And this is how it all begins. It's actually quite tragic when you think about it.

It is tragic. Girls need the same freedoms as boys but as soon as a boy wants the freedoms as girls, he is told he can't have that.

[timemeddler]

New age woman never heard of a nightshirt? They're exactly the same thing.

[Stu]

New age woman never heard of a nightshirt? They're exactly the same thing.

Absolutely. She's not thinking straight. Of course, a small boy would rather have one with his favourite cartoon character rather than looking like an Edwardian gent.

I remember in the early 1980s in southern Spain seeing a poster in a shop showing a family wearing simple "long tee-shirts" in bedtime mode. The designs looked a bit Arabic, obviously to make them a bit exotic, but the idea that a lad can't wear anything for bed which doesn't include something bifurcated at the legs is ridiculous.

Stu

[robehickman]

We (people collectively) really need to stop doing this.

Have you any assertion on the odds of that actually happening -- that we will be able to pivot everybody neatly and nicely so we stop beating people up who "look differently"? I do, and it's not an encouraging picture based on my life experience. Because it's roughly, "Nil".

It absolutely is possible to create attitude changes. In the last roughly 5 years, the contra dance community has largely, and quite effectively eliminated gandering from dance events, see this paper:

http://www.andrewsnydermusic.com/upload ... ulture.pdf

The LGBT community has also made a lot of progress in changing social attitudes, admittedly also manifesting a lot of pushback.

Regarding the issue raised in this thread, parenting groups would probably be a good place to start manifesting change.

[Modoc]

It absolutely is possible to create attitude changes. In the last roughly 5 years, the contra dance community has largely, and quite effectively eliminated gandering from dance events, see this paper:

http://www.andrewsnydermusic.com/upload ... ulture.pdf

The LGBT community has also made a lot of progress in changing social attitudes, admittedly also manifesting a lot of pushback.

Regarding the issue raised in this thread, parenting groups would probably be a good place to start manifesting change.

Long article but a very interesting read indeed thanks.