Class reaction

[iain]

Yes, men are taking a hammering psychologically, but it's their own fault for wanting to be the "unbeatable warrior" striding far and wide for so many generations.

How many times do we have to see the phrase, "Size matters!" in airline baggage ads, car ads, bank mortgage ads, grocery ads, soft drink ads, newspaper headlines, holiday brochures, etc etc ad nauseum, while a woman smirkingly retracts a tape measure into place? men are taking a beating and grinning gamely lest they appear too upset by it. (anyone who doubts this.. do a search on "size matters" on google or yahoo, to get 1.5m pages, all of which are making clever, knowing puns on the phrase!)

If we made fun of women in the same way, overtly belittling the fat content of their body, the size of their hips, the size of their breasts or other sexual organs.. can you imagine the furious outcry, the slammed doors, the slapped faces, protest marches, boycotted goods, letters to the editor, and finally the snivelling apologies of the boardroom cretins or media hacks? Bulimia and anorexia are often deep seated attempts by the female psyche to use their bodies to compensate for some perceived loss or inadequacy. Men are less prone to this, but they still have similar deep seated fears: wearing skirts is even seen by some as a public humiliation, so presenting the idea sometimes needs a lot of sensitivity and intellectual reasoning.

When presented with a choice which appears in their mind to attempt to feminise them, it's no wonder a roomfull of men, acutely conscious of the reactions of their colleagues to any inadvertent slip of the psychological mask, may go into overdrive and start to burn rubber inside.

The average guy will need a lot of confidence to go out in a kilt or skirt. It took me a long time and a lot of encouragement.. so it's probably the worst time in the world to be pushing this kind of fashion, and yet, when the mood catches up with it, it's going to release a lot of pent-up fears and welcome a whole segment of society back into a more carefree and self-expressive mood. I personally can't wait, which is why I support this site 100%.

[hiker]

But I think that the biggest part of wearing a skirt is that men are concerned about being different. I don't women as a group are raised with the same level of concern about being different as men are. As a man, being different can attract negative and confrontation attention in a lot places from people you don't even know. Because of this anything that is different is very difficult for men.

I always remember that different is bad for many men. It doesn't matter what the difference is. Difference defines someone as being not from our group or tribe - and hence is a potential threat. That leads to a lot of reactions that are not thought out and don't make sense (for skirts and other elements of being different).

[hiker]

Is it any wonder that US students lag so far behind those of the first world.

US students are not as far behind as you might believe. I am always amazed at the poor education levels of students from Europe, particularly from France, Spain, and Italy. But I am not overwhelmed by the education levels of the others. Students from Asia are excellent at mathematics, but it doesn't extend much beyond that.

I often wonder why students today even bother to graduate from high school and don't just move along to university when they are ready. A HS diploma is not required by most universities.

Today the challenges in education are in preparing students to see the connections between things and that requires a broad education, which is generally not supported by our public education system - nor anyone elses. As a result my children were all educated privately.

OK - I'm completely off topic - but I think that if our students had broader more comprehensive educations - more of the male students would wear skirts, kilts, and other non traditional clothing elements.

[iain]

That's true about the tribal thing. Two women in the same dress at a wedding might lead to a big exchange of catty comments.. but two guys wearing the same thing are gonna think, "Great!! I got it just right!!"

[Departed Member]

Difference defines someone as being not from our group or tribe - and hence being a potential threat.

You're absolutely spot on, there! Which then stimulates aggressive behaviour (vestiges of 'territorial' ancestry, think you?), be it (loudly) vocal, or even physical. Yet if a 'recognised tribal leader' (pop-star, footballer or smilar) adopts some trait, then it is often lauded and sometimes copied. That's all the wearing of 'team colours' football shirts is about - tribal followers, still. :shake: (Un-?)natural 'progression' from scarves and/or hats? :cheer: You really wouldn't know this was the 21st century, would you?

[Sasquatch]

I'm firmly of the opinion that young men are 'encouraged' to be/feel insecure from infancy, these days. It's all about societal 'control'. Look how many TV adverts are especially geared to 'putting down' the male, and emphasising the 'superiority' of the female mind. Even small boys who might enquire, out of natural curiosity, whether they can try on a dress/skirt will be rapidly 'put down' with a sharp, "Boys aren't ALLOWED to wear dresses/skirts!" I believe it is this early 'forbidden territory' aspect that influences unease in most blokes, rather than any (let's face it, media-contrived) 'sexuality issues'. Equally, young girls (esp. early teens) are 'taught' (teen's magazines, etc.) to 'use' "I can wear a skirt! You can't!" as a sign of their ascendance over their male counterparts.

Greetings,
I'm a newcomer to the forum, but I already feel like I know some of you, having pulled down this page from time to time over the last few weeks.

I have a somewhat different view on society's lack of tolerance for men who express what has been traditionally "feminine" character in their dress and appearance. I don't see it as an ascendance of women over their male counterparts; in fact, I think the acceptance of women in pants or any other garb that was traditionally (in recent centuries) male while rejecting men in skirts speaks more about a continuing lack of worth for women. This social state suggests that masculinity is naturally the more desirable condition (vs. feminity), therefore it was subconsciuosly considered as only natural that women would want to wear pants, thereby emulating the superior masculine ideal. Society just can't come to terms with the idea that hetero men would choose to move in the opposite direction, toward the inferior feminity. Therefore society sees these men as disturbingly deviant, or, at best, "a half bubble off plumb."

Personally, I know I'm a half bubble off, and am comfortable with it.

Sasq

[Departed Member]

Quote from Sasquatch: "This social state suggests that masculinity is naturally the more desirable condition (vs. feminity), therefore it was subconsciuosly considered as only natural that women would want to wear pants, thereby emulating the superior masculine ideal. Society just can't come to terms with the idea that hetero men would choose to move in the opposite direction, toward the inferior feminity."

Yep! The Feminazi's very careful and calculated ploy to undermine the male's 'traditional' role summed up so succinctly! In many (most?) parts of the UK, especially the more industrialised, the female element has been the dominant, driving force for well over a century. It's only in the latter quarter, that their 'control' has been challenged by, surprisingly, other women! You're quite correct about Society's inability to acknowledge the possibility that anyone would consider choosing a different route. Even more confusing for some, is that the vast majority of men here on this forum actually and deliberately don't express, or infer, "feminine" character in their dress and appearance! The opposite in fact!

[ChristopherJ]

Personally, I know I'm a half bubble off, and am comfortable with it.

Me too.

Welcome Sasquatch. I'm a newcomer to this forum as well - and I have found it a great place to listen, learn, share ideas and find support. I hope you do also.

Bulimia and anorexia are often deep seated attempts by the female psyche to sacrifice their bodies to compensate for some perceived loss or inadequacy.

I've got to comment on this - as it's a subject that I know a little about as I do voluntary work with an agency who provides counselling etc. for all forms of addiction - including eating disorders.

The main drive behind bulimia and anorexia is a desire for control. These disorders are most often seen in young people who are fearful that some aspect of their life is out of their control - and so they try and compensate for this by rigidly controlling those aspects of their life that they are able to - what they eat. Body image plays a huge part in this. People who suffer from Bulimia or Anorexia have a very distorted body image (of themselves).

These disorders do not often stem from a perceived loss or from a feeling of inadequacy - although that can develop later. They also have nothing to do with "sacrificing" their bodies. That just simply does not apply.

The average guy will need a lot of confidence to go out in a kilt or skirt. It took me a long time and a lot of encouragement..

So true. Every time I go out wearing a skirt - I feel nervous. Nevertheless, I do not let that stop me. I refuse to let my own fear prevent me from simply walking down the street dressed in whatever clothes I chose to wear.

Once I get out and am walking along the street, the fear subsides - and I'm basically back to my usual self then - i.e. just the normal level of paranoia!

[iain]

These are such interesting comments made, especially about eating disorders. I'm inclined to agree, from what little I know about it. My cousin died of anorexia some years back: she felt her father wanted a boy, and she was desperately unhappy to the end.

I think it would help all people, males and females if they were given a feeling right from the start of having more control over their lives, their fashion, and less of a need to please others. If so, people might feel less need to put down others for the way they look or dress, and be more interested in the variety rather than uniformity. I always tell my kids they should listen to their own selves: when do they feel hungry, or not? What do they feel is interesting to them and worthy of their time? And what are they really excited about, since their mind is the only sure link they can ever have as to their own life's destiny.

And given information, they make surprisingly adult choices. When the commerce behind McDonalds was explained to them, at the ages of 5 and 7, they were outraged that wealthy businessmen in boardrooms would want to make money off them with low quality food and cheap, boring toys--and they quietly boycotted it ever since, even in the face of awesomely powerful advertising, while allowing their friends the freedom to do as they wished.

But my central heating is broken today so I have other things to concern myself with!

[Sasquatch]

Amen to that, Iain. And my kids have lately had a similar response in terms of boycotting McD's.
Hope you get the heat back on. It's about 70 degrees F here on the NC coast today - unbelieveably warm for January.
Sasq

[Charlie]

"This social state suggests that masculinity is naturally the more desirable condition (vs. feminity), therefore it was subconsciuosly considered as only natural that women would want to wear pants, thereby emulating the superior masculine ideal. Society just can't come to terms with the idea that hetero men would choose to move in the opposite direction, toward the inferior feminity."

That's the sort of logic to use against a guy who's being macho to impress his woman. The argument would go something like:
"So what you're saying is, I'm making myself inferior by wearing a skirt, which is usually associated with women. That makes women inferior to men?"
If he agrees that women are inferior to men, he's likely to be clouted by his woman. If he agrees that women are equal to men, then what's the problem in wearing a skirt?

Does that make sense or could I have phrased it better?

Charlie

[Departed Member]

That's the sort of logic to use against a guy who's being macho to impress his woman. The argument would go something like:
"So what you're saying is, I'm making myself inferior by wearing a skirt, which is usually associated with women. That makes women inferior to men?"
If he agrees that women are inferior to men, he's likely to be clouted by his woman. If he agrees that women are equal to men, then what's the problem in wearing a skirt?

Does that make sense or could I have phrased it better?

Charlie

Feminazi mantra dictates that they consider themselves in some way 'superior' to men. By donning a garment they regard as 'symbolic' of the male (hence the phrase oft used, "Who wears the tr*users in that household?"), initially as a sign/badge of defiance, they have then sought to represent the skirt as a sign of men's age old repression of women. Equally, they are inclined to regard those women who choose to wear skirts in the face of their 'sisterly' propaganda as 'inferior' to themselves. BUT, it would be equally an anathema to their viewpoint to see men 'take up' wearing skirts, because, ironically, it undermines their "WE can wear skirts OR tr*users, because WE are superior to you men!" Warped logic? :shake:

[iain]

You shouldn't be using logic.. it's not the right tool. You're using a ruler to measure a balloon.. My girlfriend got out of bed this morning and said she was going to the gym so she'd look good for me in her new underwear. I said, great, I'll come too..

She said it was the wrong answer to someone trying to be so charming! But I told her, if I'd said, don't go--she'd have assumed I was against something she was trying to do. Naturally, I should have said.. don't go! You look fine the way you are! She shrugged: what do you expect? I'm a woman!

I got out of it by saying she wasn't A woman, she was THE woman. And that smoothed it all over.. I love her to bits.

Different clothing suits different moods, and men have locked themselves into one mood for a long time, even one STYLE of mood. Trousers: jeans or dark slacks. And that's it..

My girlfriend says she'd never stop me doing something I'd like to do. And I think that's the whole strength, the whole great thing about some women: they might not use logic, and they might be continually turning a situation around to check it out from all sides, thereby outwitting the guy who has it all figured out from one side.. but once they lend their emotional support to whatever you do, you're on to a winner.

[skirttron]

Even many educated men, and especially those young enough to be insecure about their positions in the eyes of their peers, will affect disdain when confronted by a skirt-wearing man. They do this to convince their friends that they are straight. They are, of course, much less likely to act in this way when unaccompanied. It is no accident that many skirt wearing men have reached middle age and are therefore less concerned with peer approval.

[ChristopherJ]

My girlfriend got out of bed this morning and said she was going to the gym so she'd look good for me in her new underwear. I said, great, I'll come too..

Uh oh! That was a Very. Bad. Move.

Just thank your lucky stars that you didn't blurt out something like "Yes, I think you could do with some exercise . . "