Same problem, other side of the coin...

[moonshadow]

Funny, I remember Carl warning us about this... Here's a story of a 7 year old "tomboy" who is fine with being a girl and is NOT transgender, however growing up in the current political climate, she and her mom are growing weary of having the "trans" discussion with schools and other community members constantly.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/18/opin ... omboy.html

On the one hand, we see here that even females are starting to have some of the same issues we have, as some of us do not consider ourselves transgender, yet a growing percentage of society seems to insist we all are.

The only part about this that bugs me is in the comments. Don't get me wrong... the comments are all supportive of the girl just being who she is... a girl that likes boy things. The comments are enough to warm anyone's heart. The issue I have is as we've seen time and time again, when it's a BOY who just likes doing GIRL things... the comments are.... well... not as friendly... Where are the haters? Oh that's right... females do no wrong...

Girl wants to adopt male gender roles, but not be a trans-boy? Comments: "You're a great mom!" "What a supportive mom you are!" "Someone give these parents an award!" "Wow, I wish all parents were like you!" "Three cheers for this mom!"

Boy wants to adopt female gender roles but NOT be a trans-girl? Comments: "These parents are SICK!" "Where's CPS?" "What a bunch of libtards!" "Mom probably wanted a girl!" "THIS IS WHAT'S WRONG WITH OUR COUNTRY!" "I don't want my children going to school with those queer fags!"

SMH....

[JohnH]

It all boils down to being masculine is perceived as superior to being feminine. A female who has masculine qualities is seen as elevating herself but a male with feminine qualities is debasing himself.

This perception is really stupid. To reproduce there must be females. Males ensure genetic diversity but of course they can't reproduce. So in reality it's more important to have females.

John

[Grok]

It all boils down to being masculine is perceived as superior to being feminine. A female who has masculine qualities is seen as elevating herself but a male with feminine qualities is debasing himself.

My reaction is...are we comparing apples and oranges?

[Uncle Al]

A very supportive mother

Wish other mothers would be as supportive of their sons who
choose a different type of clothing, toys and willing to play with
girls at this young age. The boys who would rather be in a
kitchen learning to cook instead of on a sports field, hitting
baseballs or kicking soccer balls. These are the 'Stereotype'
ideas/concepts placed on kids by society.

This is true to this day - boys were not taught how to cook, yet
as grown men, are the highest paid Chef's around the world.
Is this a double standard

In the field of music, boys are considered 'sissies' if they
want to play the piano. But put a guitar in their hands -
that's OK. I'll bet that 'Count Basie', when he was a child,
had similar problems, but as a adult, he became quite famous.

Again, is this a double standard

Just my $.02 worth

Uncle Al

[crfriend]

In the field of music, boys are considered 'sissies' if they want to play the piano. But put a guitar in their hands - that's OK. I'll bet that 'Count Basie', when he was a child, had similar problems, but as a adult, he became quite famous.

I had similar problems as a youngster when it was decided by my parental units that I needed to learn to play an instrument. When queried on the matter, I answered, based on my then-knowledge of the various instruments and what were in common usage, "Flute". It's an interesting and complex instrument and is capable of a vast range of expression. Needless to say, that was shot down without comment in spite of protestations to the contrary. I guess that neither my father nor my grandparents ever heard of Jean-Pierre Rampal, Florian Schneider, or Ray Thomas.

Eventually it was settled that I'd take up clarinet. I did well with the instrument and still love its sound, but later took up the oboe and shone with it. I still think I would have done well with the flute.

(I need to restore my old clarinet to working order. I feel I owe it to the device.)

Of course it's a double-standard, and no matter how hard we try to knock those down I quite suspect they're going to continue to exist. Even as a very young boy I regarded "tomboys" as a bit of an aberration -- and that's before the full force of "societal influence" hit. I was not amused then, and I remain unamused today. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

[Grok]

An important point made in the article is the distinction between gender (identity) nonconformity, and gender role nonconformity. If I understood correctly, the little girl was interested in things typically associated with boys, but definitely had a female gender identity. Which would make her... ...a Tomboy!

[Ralph]

This highlights my concern that people are too quick to slap labels on everyone and everything, and that "gender identity" (or expression) is just an artificial social construct. With a few exceptions (intersex), there is an objective delineation between male and female biological sex. But with gender identity/expression, gender is whatever the presenter, or the audience, chooses to call it. What specific traits and behaviors cause one to self-identify as male or female? What types of gender expression are exclusively reserved for male or female?

Rather than say "I was born male, but I believe I am female inside because of such-and-so traits" I can simply say "I was born male, but I reject society's antiquated, artificial definitions of how men are supposed to behave and I'll do and say and wear anything I choose to."

[moonshadow]

Well said Ralph! I have basically settled my opinion on it right where you're at.

[hoborob]

Hmmm just thinking here....

A girl dressed as a boy....TomBoy....

A boy dressed as a girl.......????

[Grok]

A boy dressed as a girl.......????

I have come across the term "janegirl". This seems to be the opposite of Tomboy-a boy who likes stuff that is usually associated with girls.

[Ralph]

Historically, before the term became attached to the fetish community, "sissy" was the male equivalent of "tomboy" -- simply a boy who looked and/or acted effeminate. A grievous insult, to be sure, but without the sexual connotations the term carries today.

[Darryl]

I started with piano in 3rd grade, moved to trumpet, have dabbled with clarinet and French Horn. This was from about '61-'80. Then in '81 I took up the flute...a lighter, more easily carried and quieter instrument with the added benefit of sitting up front with the ladies in community band. I also started dabbling with electric bass as an option at church.

I never cared for sports...until 1980 when I got a gym membership and started lifting weights and loved it. I'm now working on walking/jogging and biking so I may move up to biathlon someday. Individual accomplishment, rather than team accomplishment.

Can't say if it was me alone or my being raised by my mom and grandmother but I could lay claim to the 'janegirl' tag. At least if it is on a continuum where some 'boy things' are liked and some 'girl things' were also liked. Suppressing some clothing experiments in the teen years until about 10 years ago when the adventure began.

Interesting topic....

[Grok]

I never cared for sports...until 1980 when I got a gym membership and started lifting weights and loved it. I'm now working on walking/jogging and biking so I may move up to biathlon someday. Individual accomplishment, rather than team accomplishment.

I could never get into team sports. Which society emphasizes. But I could certainly do the same as you, activities that were about individual involvement such as walking/jogging. (Not biking at this point-I have arthritic knees).

When I was a teen ager, I was hung ho about the martial arts. I took karate classes for a couple years. A class in foil fencing one summer. As an adult, I briefly tried aikido a couple different times, but didn't stick with it.

[moonshadow]

As far as dolls go, I never really was much into them, nor other actions figures like G.I. Joe, etc. I did enjoy playing with doll houses though. I liked to "improve" them, such as make renovations, additions, and attempt to make them more practical for Barbie and Ken. You'd be surprised what I could accomplish with construction paper, cardboard, and popsicle sticks. I recall one time attempting to fabricate a functional plumbing system for Barbie's kitchen using straws and a 2 liter drink bottle....

I made somewhat of a mess....

My other toys of choice were Matchbox cars and of course, Legos. 10 year old Moon Shadow... give me a box of Matchbox cars, some legos and a dirt patch in the backyard and I'll be out of the parents hair for HOURS!

I HATED sports, and was completely uninterested in any sporting evens growing up, and that sentiment continues today. I have no Earthly idea about anything sporting related, from Football to Baseball, to Nascar and beyond. Sitting around all day on Sunday watching sports, or anything else on TV, movies, shows, etc makes me feel as though I've wasted a day....

In my early teens dad would take me to my cousins house often. They lived in the county off an old secondary road in an old farm house that was surrounded by hundreds of acres of land. There were fields to run in, creeks to dam up and play in, there was an old abandoned tobacco barn that we would explore and climb on the hangers. My God... kids today.... they don't even know man... they don't even know... (gheesh... I'm starting to sound like my parents! )

Damned smart phones ruined a whole generation's childhood!

I'm not sure where that puts me on the gender spectrum. But honestly, in those day's I really didn't care about such topics, I was too busy being a child. The only politics I ever heard was "read my lips, no new taxes!" I had no idea what that old man on the TV was talking about, nor did I really understand what a "tax" was, but I knew there would be no new ones! ... I assumed that was a good thing. But he seemed kind of pissed when he said it so I really wasn't too sure. It reminded me of when my folks would scold me for getting into the cookie jar.... "READ MY LIPS.... NO. MORE. COOKIES!"

"Gramma, can I have a slice of cheese?"

"GET OUTTA THE FRIGERAT'ER OR I'LL STAND YOU IN THE CORNER!!!"

[Caultron]

As far as dolls go, I never really was much into them, nor other actions figures like G.I. Joe, etc. I did enjoy playing with doll houses though...

Interesting observation. I too was much more interested in doll houses than dolls. I also liked building things with American Bricks, Lincoln Logs, and an Erector Set. Later I liked assembling electronic equipment. I guess I was just born to be an engineer.

For many years, though, I did relish a certain plush panda. It was basically my security blanket.

Odd, though, isn't it, that it's OK for boys to play with action figures but not dolls?