Shooting in Orlando Fla.

[Fred in Skirts]

Early this morning 50 people were gunned down in an Orlando Fla gay night club by a gunman claiming Isis allegiance. Scores hurt. House Intelligence Committee Ranking Member Rep. Adam Schiff said in a statement that the timing and location of the attack and information coming from local authorities indicated "an ISIS-inspired act of terrorism."

It just goes to show you have to be aware of where you are at all times and can not let your guard down.

Fred


[Moderator Note: Typo in title corrected - Ian]

[Grok]

I think I can see how distrust can be aggravated, and lead to a hardening of attitudes.

[dillon]

Certainly fits the ISIS MO...may end up in deployment of ground forces in Syria. Not good. Amazing that one lone actor can obtain the firepower to do such destruction, and all in the name of God. I am a gun owner, and support the second amendment, but we really have to come together as a country to find a way to know who is buying what weapon and where it is. It just doesn't take much to convert many of these weapons to full auto, and with high capacity interchangeable magazines, it's a recipe for more and more of this insanity.

[bobmoore]

Can you un-ring a bell?

This murderer used an H&K which, along with the AK-47, is available in huge numbers for as little as 25 bucks. Knowing who has what just isn't possible. What IS possible is identifying the enemy for who he is.

[crfriend]

Of note in this escapade is that since the shooter is now conveniently dead we will never know precisely what his motive was.

Much has been made about the "allegiance to ISIS" but there have also apparently been comments by the shooter in the past about other extremist groups in the middle-east, most of whom hate one another. To claim affiliation with more than one is highly suspicious and makes this look more like the work of somebody that's mentally ill or simply severely bigoted against homosexuals. We do not know, nor now can we ever thanks to a trigger-happy paramilitary police system.

This is likely much simpler than what's being spun about it, and I've got a fiver that says nobody will bother to do the legwork to figure out what went wrong in this guy's head (or any of the other ones' heads from prior incidents). Rinse, lather, repeat. Personally, I'm sick of it. The powers that be need to understand the problem and not just resort to their own brand of ultra-violence in attempting to deal with it.

[moonshadow]

To claim affiliation with more than one is highly suspicious and makes this look more like the work of somebody that's mentally ill or simply severely bigoted against homosexuals. We do not know, nor now can we ever thanks to a trigger-happy paramilitary police system.

This is likely much simpler than what's being spun about it, and I've got a fiver that says nobody will bother to do the legwork to figure out what went wrong in this guy's head (or any of the other ones' heads from prior incidents). Rinse, lather, repeat. Personally, I'm sick of it. The powers that be need to understand the problem and not just resort to their own brand of ultra-violence in attempting to deal with it.

Uh-huh! Yeeeaap!

[Sinned]

I think Obama was right to mock Trump's comment to ban all Muslims coming into the country. That's not the answer.

[Pdxfashionpioneer]

Carl, your bank account thanks all of us for not taking you up on your bet. As a nearly addicted viewer of CNN, it's quite clear that they are thoroughly investigating the Orlando atrocity.

Going well beyond the easy out, the investigation seems to be uncovering that the shooter had a violent temper and may have been conflicted over his bisexual tendencies so buying and using an AR-15 and a Glock was his way of proving his "manhood."

As far as implementing Dilon's point of figuring out who owns what, it probably isn't as tough as it sounds, though it would take awhile. What we need are 3 conceptually simple elements that we have applied to automobiles, without compromising the Constitutional guarantees of free transit all over the country, 1) universal registration, 2) automatic liability (That is, if something bad is done with your firearm [and legally it is yours if you're the last owner of record] you are legally liable and 3) compulsory liability insurance. If you own a firearm and don't want to bear those burdens you can turn it in for destruction by the authorities or sell it through legal channels creating a paper trail ending your liability. Sold your firearms years ago but the paper trail ends with you; prove it before something bad happens, including letting the police search your home, your safety deposit box and any other place you might be secreting such an item. We'd probably need one or two other outs, but only a third of our households have firearms and yet the best estimates say we have a gun in this country for every man, woman and child. Really? How much firepower does an individual need to confirm his masculinity?

And before you scream "self-defense," look at the confirmed statistics; with a gun in your home you're 3 times more likely to have a homicide in the family 5 times more likely to have a suicide. In short, you're safer without one.

[crfriend]

Carl, your bank account thanks all of us for not taking you up on your bet. As a nearly addicted viewer of CNN, it's quite clear that they are thoroughly investigating the Orlando atrocity.

One quick word of advice, Take what CNN tell you with a grain of salt. They're temperamentally and editorially frighteningly close to Fox "News".

Going well beyond the easy out, the investigation seems to be uncovering that the shooter had a violent temper and may have been conflicted over his bisexual tendencies so buying and using an AR-15 and a Glock was his way of proving his "manhood."

Well, there's what we know, what we surmise, what we can discover, and much that we can never know. If we knew what shorted out in the minds of prior mass murderers we might have been able to better thwart such future events, perhaps including this latest one -- not by disarming the populace but rather by calming the minds of the would-be killers. This is going to take societal change -- a change that will re-inject the disparate notions of fantasy and reality and not allow the two to co-mingle. It'll take a change that would see the end of demonisation and stigmatisation of those who suffer from mental illness; to make seeking care for such conditions a realistic path rather than one that will hinder one later in life. It'll also allow men to "soften up" (for want of a better term) a little bit and give room for creative rather than destructive action. It'll take society making a 180-degree turn and sowing that the future can be a hopeful place instead of a barren morass of misery.

Absolutely the immediate responsibility falls with the shooter. However, it was entirely likely that modern society helped push the guy along.

[dillon]

Can you un-ring a bell?

This murderer used an H&K which, along with the AK-47, is available in huge numbers for as little as 25 bucks. Knowing who has what just isn't possible. What IS possible is identifying the enemy for who he is.

The weapons are actually reported as a Sig Sauer MCX .223 (5.56 mm NATO round, styled like an AR15) with 30 round clips, and a Glock 17 (9 mm auto) handgun, purchased just days before, legally, from a gun shop.

It turns out this guy had no confirmed connection to a terror organization, since he claimed three different ones, who are bitter enemies. His radicalization was via extremist websites, the same sort, I suppose, as abortion clinic bombers and backwoods arms hoarders tend to follow. it also appears now that there may have been a conflict between his natural sexual orientation and the fundamentalist tenets of his religion, not unlike the guilt-psychology of pulpit pedophilia, which may have been a factor in his probable mental illness. Too, some of it may have been egged-on by his second and current wife. He was clearly more wack-job than trained terrorist, however.

No, you can't un-ring a bell or convince anyone to sell back weapons; I never proposed that. Prohibitions don't work. They failed with alcohol, gambling, sodomy, pornography, and drugs; they will fail with guns and abortion just as surely. Prohibition is the knee-jerk reaction of the illogical. I propose limits based on thorough information and supported by taxes on the industry.

But why does anyone need to buy an AR15 or any other high ROF weapon, rapidly reloaded with interchangeable magazines (auto handguns included) without the force of law requiring them to be mentally fit and not a potential danger to society? We should not have these flimsy, worthless instant background checks that have only criminal records as information. If you are a legit shooting enthusiast without some nefarious purpose, you are surely mature enough to handle some days or weeks of deferred gratification while you are thoroughly screened. We require staged qualification for driver's licenses; it is not unreasonable to do so for arms as well.

And why should flea-market or gun-show dealers not have to comply with the same laws as a gun shop proprietor?

And if you want a strict Constitutional constructionist view of the Second Amendment, then why would we not be limited to pre-rifle-bore muzzle-loaders, as was the known technology at the time the amendment was added? Isn't arguing that the Constitution is adaptable to accommodate societal change over time opening the proverbial can o' worms that conservatives disdain so vehemently? Yes...up to the point, of course, that it happens to serve their politics.

The NRA doesn't truly represent gun owners, BTW. Most of us sport shooters are reasonable folks with common decency. It effectively represents only the INDUSTRY. Gun owners are often both the victims and perpetrators of gun violence and firearm accidents...and gun suicides. I'm just saying we know there is a problem with ease of access to high capacity weapons and inadequate background information clearance. Improving the situation is consistently thwarted by the NRA, who always screams about not enforcing the existing laws, yet throws political roadblocks up at every juncture when we try to allow law enforcement to better protect the innocent. Shame on the NRA propagandists and their naive followers.

BTW, if you can truthfully find an AK47 in the US for $25, please get me one. I think if I will need it if we continue to allow this national insanity.

[Grok]

As I understand it black market AK-47s are sold in the USA.

Which I mentioned when someone promoted prohibition on another web site/forum.

I had done a little online research about the availability of guns. And discovered that there are multiple ways to circumvent a firearms prohibition.

I don't know about 3D printing of guns, but I came across instructions on how to make a STEN gun at home with old style equipment.

Another web site suggested ways to hide guns.

As for gun running, prohibition never stopped the smuggling of drugs.

[dillon]

As I understand it black market AK-47s are sold in the USA.

Which I mentioned when someone promoted prohibition on another web site/forum.

I had done a little online research about the availability of guns. And discovered that there are multiple ways to circumvent a firearms prohibition.

I don't know about 3D printing of guns, but I came across instructions on how to make a STEN gun at home with old style equipment.

Another web site suggested ways to hide guns.

As for gun running, prohibition never stopped the smuggling of drugs.

Typically black market arms are purchased legally in-country and resold at a high mark-up to gangs and felons. The cheapest stripped-down AK47 I could find through online brokers was $500. The normal range was $700 to $1300, depending on country of origin and features, with some asking $2000+. Kalashnikov rifles are not really hard to manufacture, but, even so, you couldn't make and sell here for anything like $25. That's a Pakistan price.

[Uncle Al]

I think Obama was right to mock Trump's comment to ban all Muslims
coming into the country. That's not the answer.

To set the record straight -

ISLAM WAS BANNED FROM THE USA IN 1952
but Obama doesn’t want you to know that, nor does he respect or uphold US law.

The Immigration and Nationality Act passed June 27, 1952 revised the laws relating to
immigration, naturalization and nationality for the United States.

That Act, which became Public Law 414, established both the law and the intent of Congress
regarding the immigration of aliens to the US and remains in effect today.

Among the many issues it covers, one in particular found in Chapter 2, Section 212, is the
prohibition of entry in to the US if the alien belongs to an organization seeking to overthrow
the government of the United States by force, violence or by other unconstitutional means.”

This, by its very definition, rules out Islamic immigration to the United States but this law
is being ignored by the White House.

Islamic immigration to the United States would be prohibited under this law because the Koran,
Sharia Law and the Hadith all require complete submission to Islam which is antithethical to the
United States government, the Constitution and to the Republic.

All Muslims who attest that the Koran is their life’s guiding principal subscribe to submission
to Islam and its form of government.

Now the politically correct crowd would say that Islamists cannot be prohibited from entering
the United States because Islam is a ‘religion.’

Whether it is a ‘religion’ is immaterial because the law states that aliens who are affiliated with
any organization that advocates the overthrow of our government are prohibited.

PUBLIC LAW 414-JUNE 27, 1952

Trump may be the ONLY candidate who is willing to uphold the current laws of the United States
instead of trying to avoid or ignore them to be 'popular', and in turn, the 'popular' candidate will
cause the demise of America - as we know it

Hope this info helps

Uncle Al

[dillon]

That has not been the position of Courts, Congress or any Administration, Republican or Democratic. Give us a break...

http://www.snopes.com/islam-banned-u-s-1952/

[Uncle Al]

I gave you 'a break' by posting the link to the entire 164 page PDF document.

Snopes.com is not correct 100% of the time.

The followers of Islam/followers of the Quran therefore fall under the realm of
oppressors of women, Sharia Law - outlawed in the U.S. by the 1952 document,
and the killing of 'infidels', a.k.a. any faith/religion other than Islam, for not
following 'Mohammad'. They will do any, and every, thing in their power to
overthrow any group of people, including killing them, for not following the Quran.

I had a Doctor care for me several years ago who is Muslim. He and his family
are very kind people. They've adopted to the American way of life. They maintain
some tenants of Islam but are very Pro-America! They see where the 'radicals'
are wrong and they denounce Islamic radical behavior.

We can agree to disagree but if I had to choose between 'Billary' and 'The Donald'
I'ld take 'The Donald' any day of the week

Uncle Al