It's not just me spouting off

[skirtingtoday]

Did anyone see or remember, the "what the papers say" on the BBC? No - didn't think so. Here is the article (not available on the BBC by the way, but on Youtube) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBoQvoCkkH8

For me, it is a couple of very intelligent and sensible people discussing the Sunday Herald article declaring its support for the YES campaign.

The article is summarised here:- http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... dependence

The Herald (and Sunday Herald) require subscription to view them but the initial article is here:- http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/ ... 1399149163

The BBC itself didn't comment initially but has since declared the article as coming from a low circulation paper and that it won't affect anything. Funnily enough, ALL the copies of that newspapers issue sold out... unusual, even for them. Indeed many declared that they wished a T-shirt from that emblem!

[Ralph]

The view from the other side of the pond is that we Yanks think you're making the right decision. I just hope your tussle with the Redcoats isn't as messy or prolonged as ours was

[Sinned]

Having been born in the County of Durham and as a resident of that illustrious county of Yorkshire I live a lot closer to the scene of action than most of you ( excepting those who
actually live in Scotland ) yet I am quite unconcerned about something that I have absolutely no control over. Whatever happens, happens and whatever is decided north of the border there will be a lot discussions, obfuscations, very hot air and some downright lies from both sides. Politics is like that. He speak with forked tongue. Where have we heard that before. Anyway it's only 136 days away. Maybe the end of an era, maybe not.

[skirtingtoday]

Here is another good article explaining how the situation actually is between Scotland and England:-

http://derekbateman.co.uk/2014/05/15/tough-love/

As far as I was aware, there should have been a partnership between the two countries but this is quite definitely not the case we have at present.

Oy yes - do read the comments after the article!

[Big and Bashful]

Well that's one view. Out of all the people I know around here, I know two who agree with that view.

It is a view I don't share, not even slightly.

[Milfmog]

I was going to reply; but I lost interest a few lines into my answer.

That complete lack of interest is still the dominant position of most residents of the southern half of Great Britain.

Have fun, but remember that in a democracy you get the politicians you deserve,


Ian.

[dillon]

Personally, I keep hoping that Texas, and its politics, will secede... Maybe take Oklahoma along, too.

[crfriend]

Personally, I keep hoping that Texas, and its politics, will secede... Maybe take Oklahoma along, too.

I could say that about every state south of the old Mason-Dixon line, and more than a few north of it.

Long-term, I can see serious enough fractures that could cause the New England states and possibly New York join with the Maritime provinces of Canada as they break from increasing problems to their west. Similarly, I can envision Washington State and Oregon seceding from the USA and joining forces with British Columbia to form a new entity, possibly called "Cascadia"; this might also involve northern California, but that's speculation atop an already speculative view. This would leave a fairly homogenous aggregation in the middle that seems to share much in the way of philosophy, and that could well be a good thing so long as inter-country relations remain civil.

Texas? Well, as their tourist advertising claims, "It's like a whole 'nother country." To that, I say, "Make it so."

Given the level of divisiveness in the USA, the squabbles betwixt Scotland and (primarily) England seem pretty tame. But, that's the view from an ocean away.

[Big and Bashful]

I thought I would add in this line at the start, to make it clear that I am not trying to upset, offend or incur the wrath of anyone on this forum, my views of the U.S. are purely what I see coming across in the media and are most likely very innaccurate. The next paragraph describes what appears to me to be the make up of the U.S.

The U of SA fascinates and sometimes almost frightens me, as a Brit I don't really know which "sects" live where, but it seems to be a land of extremes. You have the Amish (Interesting lifestyle, insular but at least not scary). There is "The Bible Belt" which is I presume where a lot of the ultra-conservative, anti-everything brigade seem to come from. Then there is the ultra-capitalist, money is everything mentality who I suppose are widely distributed through the whole place, we have more than enough of those here as well. That's all the stereotypes I can think of for now. What does scare me a bit is the potential for a future President of the most powerful nation in the world, to be belligerant and also convinced that whatever they do is right, "Because God is on their side" so they cannot do wrong.

And as for the Tea Party! I still haven't figured out what that was about!

OK, you have seen my poorly edumacated picture of the U.S. Please could some of you from over there on that side of the Pond tell me what it is really like? Just how ludicrous is my picture of your country?

Getting back on thread, my vision of the States is probably very wrong, but living in central Scotland, my views of Scotland are probably just as far out, I live on the Clyde working for the largest employer in the area, one which the SNP want to send back to England to render this region unemployed. Is it any wonder that most of the people around here are totally against independence? I have no idea what people are thinking away from the Clyde and the Naval bases. Also as part of the Naval bases, I see just how untrue a lot of what Salmond says to the public is and I can't believe people would actually fall for it, I hope the general population are more intelligent and less gullible than he hopes. This is also why I think he has given the vote to 16 year olds for this, due to their smaller experience, they are more likely to fall for his "promises".

[crfriend]

I thought I would add in this line at the start, to make it clear that I am not trying to upset, offend or incur the wrath of anyone on this forum, my views of the U.S. are purely what I see coming across in the media and are most likely very innaccurate. The next paragraph describes what appears to me to be the make up of the U.S.

If we can keep the conversation polite, that'd be grand, else I rather suspect this'll be the last time I allow such a thread to exist for more than a few seconds.

The U of SA fascinates and sometimes almost frightens me, as a Brit I don't really know which "sects" live where, but it seems to be a land of extremes. You have the Amish (Interesting lifestyle, insular but at least not scary). There is "The Bible Belt" which is I presume where a lot of the ultra-conservative, anti-everything brigade seem to come from. Then there is the ultra-capitalist, money is everything mentality who I suppose are widely distributed through the whole place, we have more than enough of those here as well. That's all the stereotypes I can think of for now. What does scare me a bit is the potential for a future President of the most powerful nation in the world, to be belligerant and also convinced that whatever they do is right, "Because God is on their side" so they cannot do wrong.

I rather suspect that's a more common world-view of the US than folks either here (in the US) or elsewhere realize or would admit to. The USA is a vast place, both in geography and culture, and the latter is constantly undergoing change and evolution. As a land composed of nearly 100% immigrants (Native Americans make up only a tiny percentage of the population) a large number of cultures were compressed into what the USA would become, and that's continuing apace, mainly via immigration from Central and South America. Sometimes people adapted to the "melting pot" culture of the USA over time, but increasingly are not, and that's causing a lot of distress internally. Even though it's losing out to China as the world's economic powerhouse, its remains huge, but the disparity between the "haves" and the "have-nots" is enormous and that disparity is widening extremely rapidly; Princeton University in New Jersey recently published a paper that finally recognizes that the USA is not a democracy but rather an oligarchy (I termed this the "No Sh!t, Sherlock Report") -- an observation that's almost half-a-decade late. Officially, the USA "... shall make no law regarding the establishment of religion or to suppress the freedom of expression of same" (rough quote, Amendment 1 to the Constitution of The United States of America), but this does not place limits on what "expression" means; this is causing problems as various religious groups attempt to usurp the power of the State for their own ends. ("Establishment", in this context, is the making of one religion the "official" one of the country, e.g. the Church of England.)

On religion, broadly speaking, the northeast is composed rather heavily of Catholics, Episcopalians, Lutherans, and Methodists; the Midwest has a reasonably large contingent of Methodists; and the southern tier seems to lean fairly heavily Baptist. Further west than the Missouri River is a bit more difficult to classify as it seems to be constantly in flux, save for Utah, which is solidly Mormon. To the point of Mennonites, of which the Amish are one sect, that group inhabits a swath of the Northeast, westward through New York and Pennsylvania and out into the northern Midwest (Hopedale, a town some 25 miles south of where I live, was originally established as a Mennonite enclave). In general, the greater the number of religious sects there are in a region, the more tolerant and open-minded folks will be; everybody realizes that they need to get on with their neighbours or things just won't work well. This is less true in places that are highly homogeneous who, quite naturally, look at "outsiders" with a wary eye. Education also plays into the equation with the northeast and western coast having the highest levels in the country which also affects the level of open-mindedness. Of note in this is that just because a sect may have a given name, the different factions may not behave in similar ways; Rhode Island has a decent contingent of Baptists, but their outlook is nothing like the mentality of the Baptists in the deep south.

An unfortunate problem that the USA has had in its existence is the desire to be the "world's cop", and has stuck its military might (which remains formidable) into lots of places where it was neither welcome nor where it was a good idea to stick it. Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan are good examples of those. To the observation that a US President can get belligerent knowing that "God is on his side", there is ample evidence of this, and the way that the US Constitution is structured does give the President considerable leeway in this regard (almost to the level of Roman Emperor). Various legislation has been enacted over the years, primarily following Vietnam, to curtail this behavior, but has largely been ignored, leading to Iraq and Afghanistan.

On the nature of politics in the US, it's been increasingly evident to the astute observer that what we're watching is, indeed, theatre. The Princeton report verifies that, which means that no matter what a party or candidate is spouting off about at any given time, at the end of the day they answer to the same paymaster whose commands the politician must unquestioningly obey else they'll be out of a very, very, cushy job. This is the root of my very sarcastic comments about the US being in the midst of "Dubya's" (George W. Bush) fourth term; since the policies (which heavily favor the oligarchs) haven't changed so much as one iota, there cannot have been a change of administration. Since the oligarchs, as in Russia, have a "lock" on the system, nothing is going to change soon; the main upshot of this is going to be the increasing bankrupting of the middle class as their wealth flows into the oligarchs' portfolios.

How's that for a depressing picture of the place?

Getting back on thread, my vision of the States is probably very wrong, but living in central Scotland, my views of Scotland are probably just as far out, I live on the Clyde working for the largest employer in the area, one which the SNP want to send back to England to render this region unemployed.

I hope the UK, or Scotland and "the rest of the UK", will get through this, and can get through it in a civilized manner. Each locality will have its special concerns and interests, and that's quite natural. I can understand Scotland's view that the south is a drain on their economy (much the same as the USA holds a similar view of its southern tier) and why they desire more autonomy or outright separation. With luck, hopefully your situation will never got to the level where ours is at in the USA.

[Grok]

It is difficult to have a feel for the politics of another country. This can apply even to a country that is close cultural kin (reading Big and Bashful's post). As for a country that isn't, perhaps it is best to remain aloof? For example, I am not quite sure what the issues are in Ukraine. Yes, I could read an explanation by an expert, but I still wouldn't have an intuitive feel for their politics.

[Big and Bashful]

Brilliantly informative reply, many thanks!

[dillon]

While it may seem impossible that we coexist, given our divisive politics, we have been through worse and come out for the better. The pendulum will swing back once again. The youth of this country is largely disenfranchised from politics, but the will make a huge social difference. To quote Mickey Hart, "History turns upon the tides and not the deeds of men."

[howardh]

This weekend's polls show the *yes* (to independence) recent rally has faltered
Panelbase in the Sunday Times has topline figures of YES 40%(nc), NO 47%(+2).
ICM in the Scotland on Sunday have figures of YES 34%(-5), NO 46%(+4). Quote; ukpollingreport.co.uk
The Scots are a canny lot and know which side their bread's buttered.
As far as I know, England isn't a country either (no Parliament, monarch of it's own or even capital city!!)
'fraid this is just one huge ego-trip for Salmond. Long Live The Queen, Long Live The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and it's dependent territories!!
(But being from Lancashire, we don't mind if Yorkshire wants to go it's own way, we'll quite happily vote *yes* on that one... )

[Sinned]

(But being from Lancashire, we don't mind if Yorkshire wants to go it's own way, we'll quite happily vote *yes* on that one... )

Bearing in mind that I am an adopted Yorkie can I say that we in Yorkshire would happily go our own way and take all our rhubarb grown in that rhubarb triangle with us?