skirtcafe.org

Whoa - loaded subject. I threw this in the Freestyle Fashions forum because my question originates from manufactured outrage over this:

https://twitter.com/OliLondonTV/status/ ... 5619232211

Basically, Google has a nonbinary influencer do a short AD for Google selling - well it's not super clear what for and I honestly don't care, I don't listen to look up to influencers. (I am low-key worried about the person's ankle-monitor, but let's ignore that for a moment, could be something else). However, I overheard some commentary on a "news" opinion program, and one of the outraged people was so shocked.

His argument was such: This influencer - these people - are narcisists trying to change gender norms. They are men wearing women's clothes with the audacity to look like men. They are attention seekers.

Granted, I think his argument has many holes - and I'm sure he would be just as outraged - perhaps more so - if they had tried to look like women - or even claimed to be. And let's ignore that the AD is for some kind of skin product, which itself has its own controversies and arguments for/against.


What upset me most is the implication that challenging norms - of any type - is narcissism. I try to listen to others, give people their space and due - and do not expect fealty to my cause. But I do want to change people's minds, but I think everyone does to some extent. I don't demand respect or acceptance for MIS - but I hope others can be tolerant and maybe grow to understand my perspective. Am I asking for too much?

No, maybe not even asking enough; but you are expecting more than some may offer, and you are dreaming if you expect comprehension of either the meaning of the word, or the inherent limitation of norms from the masses or their influencers.

Faldaguy wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2024 4:15 am No, maybe not even asking enough; but you are expecting more than some may offer, and you are dreaming if you expect comprehension of either the meaning of the word, or the inherent limitation of norms from the masses or their influencers.

Very true!

I guess I find it insulting when pundits make broad assumptions about people. I do think it's fair to look at influencers (if we are going to single out a class of people) and question their motives - but I don't think we can say with certainty what motivates a person. I think we can speculate without condemning.

There's another aspect to MIS that I wrestle with which I think is why the narcissist comment felt like a stab in the back. You will often hear that "women dress to be the center of attention and men don't". I see MIS and related as people just expressing themselves and not so much "LOOK AT ME".

Coder wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2024 4:41 am I see MIS and related as people just expressing themselves and not so much "LOOK AT ME".

Just one comment, so what if it is just a way of getting attention?
Nobody is forced to give it.
From the amount of discussions around here, we all have a variety of reasons for our clothing choices, this one is no more, or less, valid than any other.
Many males of species across nature are the blatant show-off, look at me types.
They cannot all be wrong and certainly not narcissists.
Peacocks and lions spring to mind, but I'm sure there are a lot more.
Steve.
Oh I feel some sparkle is needed in today's outfit.

Well... aren't we all [narcissist], I mean... just a little?

Also, I find it somewhat ironic that a news pundit is ranting about an influencer as being an "attention seeker".

Are they both not speaking to an audience? Okay... so this Google dude is all flamboyant and femme, a master at working people up in a frenzy... and does this pundit not basically do the exact same thing? (save the femme stuff, he just rants on his soapbox)

I know they both probably like the attention they get from their trade.

I mean, I think everyone is an attention seeker to some extent.

I would tell the pundit to just sit down and shut up, but then, that's just what makes him, him. It would be like commanding a dog not to bark, or this Google guy to walk around with dry skin!

Hang on a second!
There's nothing wrong with a bit of attention seeking. Imagine humans as a nomadic tribe always on the move. Unless the tribe see's you there's a good chance they could go without you. Being seen in those circumstances is life of death.

The problem with attention seeking is when it gets out of control. A person is so attention seeking to the detriment of others.

Are you a narcissist? No but there is a bit of narcissism in everyone. We have to recognise it. The true or pure narcissist doesn't give hoot about anyone and will use any means to get what they want.

Wearing a skirt is not the same. Its not narcissism. People use all sorts of nonsense to validate their point of view against MIS. Branding us narcissists is having a dig. Why? Because they feel strongly about it. Let them have their say. It won't make any difference. The truth is the only thing that holds water long term.

I really don't want the attention from everyone, I enjoy it from people I like, usually not even then...

But I am very envious of the peacock who is allowed to just prance about, minding his own business with a large and unweildy but exceptionally beautiful tail - just for the heck of it.

I would love to don a huge ballgown dress and just go about my day, but I would hate the unwanted attention I would most likely get. But unless its for a very specific event, not even women can pull that one off.

By definition influencers are narcissists. If you throw it out there and rub it in other peoples' faces, you are a narcissist.

If you are just trying to live your life and have a different style of dress, then probably not so much a narcissist. As others have said, we are all narcissists just a little.

Seb wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2024 11:09 am I would love to don a huge ballgown dress and just go about my day, but I would hate the unwanted attention I would most likely get. But unless its for a very specific event, not even women can pull that one off.

Ok Seb, a ballgown is not quite everyday type wear, bur for an event, oh yes!
If you don't have an event, think about making one happen, get creative!
One of the most valuable pieces of advice that I have had recently, "If it's a one off, you'd better make it special"
I'm sure we'd love to see the results, I can't remember a ball gown in the pics and looks. so you could have a first.
Steve.

Is there a bigger narcissist out there than the person who posted the original article on Twitter??

Wiki page.

Gender Madness: One Man's Devastating Struggle with Woke Ideology and His Battle to Protect Children

FranTastic444 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2024 3:28 pm Is there a bigger narcissist out there than the person who posted the original article on Twitter??

He sure seems like he likes to fuss.

If ever there vwas a time of year to go for a special dress, this is it.
If not up for a full ballgown - Monsoon have some occassion dresses that I think would fit the male figure.

https://www.monsoon.co.uk/womens/dresse ... sion-edit/

STEVIE wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2024 1:32 pm

Seb wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2024 11:09 am I would love to don a huge ballgown dress and just go about my day, but I would hate the unwanted attention I would most likely get. But unless its for a very specific event, not even women can pull that one off.

Ok Seb, a ballgown is not quite everyday type wear, bur for an event, oh yes!
If you don't have an event, think about making one happen, get creative!
One of the most valuable pieces of advice that I have had recently, "If it's a one off, you'd better make it special"
I'm sure we'd love to see the results, I can't remember a ball gown in the pics and looks. so you could have a first.
Steve.

I feel I got close one Saturday when I attended BarleyMowers meet-up in London in a floor length white skirt with full petticoat? Maybe I am a narcissist for pointing this out or for some of my outfits or for posting a picture in this thread?

Mouse you certainly cut a startling figure in your outfits.

I'm not sure having tremendous amounts of fun with clothes qualifies you as a narcissist?

People just throw these things in there don't they.

I suspect that to some certain extent, most of us have somewhat narcissistic tendencies -- but that's also healthy because if one does love one's self one can properly love no-one or anything else. So, it's an essential component in human beings, in moderation. Where it goes awry is where we "love" ourselves vastly more than we appreciate the world and those around us; that's where the real aberrations start showing up and get unhealthy very, very quickly.

[Redacted example at the request of one of the mods.]