skirtcafe.org

I'm not sure how many takers they're going to have but still...

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2015/10/12/bo ... erto-rico/

That raised an interesting question for me... what is the official dress code of our local schools on this subject.

I can't find a copy of the dress code anywhere online, and Amber's calendar/handbook also doesn't mention it. I've searched a few random U.S. dress codes and they all seem to say basically that the kids need to be properly covered. Shorts and skirts to the knees... that kind of thing. They don't seem to differentiate between boys and girls.

I suppose if a boy were to try it, it would be challenged by a few conservatives, however with the LGBT movement in the nation, such a discriminatory rule would probably be overturned. Of course there would be protesters on both sides lining the sidewalks during the fight.

I do know that Amber and her friends discussion about my skirt wearing, and even it's mention in official classroom projects (like the hero power point mentioned in another thread) doesn't seem to bother school officials, or at least I haven't heard if it did. Amber said the presentation "went over well". So I guess that's a good sign.

Sure, why not? (picture of Indonesian students from 1908):

Caultron wrote:I'm not sure how many takers they're going to have but still...

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2015/10/12/bo ... erto-rico/

Just noticed this article myself from Facebook and was about to post it when I saw you had already beaten me to it!

It's good that teachers will not be allowed to discipline pupils for "cross-dressing" (i.e. girls in trousers OR boys in skirts),

As you say I don't know how many boys will take up the idea.

I suppose I should be impressed - but I'm not really. Why have they associated skirts with gay students or trans students? That will only serve to deter straight boys,

moonshadow wrote:I suppose if a boy were to try it, it would be challenged by a few conservatives, however with the LGBT movement in the nation, such a discriminatory rule would probably be overturned. Of course there would be protesters on both sides lining the sidewalks during the fight.

The LGBT crowd will look after their own. They don't care, and perhaps actively dislike, straight guys. I would not look for support from that corner any more than a guy might expect sympathetic treatment at a women's support facility.

We're on our own in this.

crfriend wrote:The LGBT crowd will look after their own. They don't care, and perhaps actively dislike, straight guys. I would not look for support from that corner any more than a guy might expect sympathetic treatment at a women's support facility.

I hope your use of the word "crowd" means that you are only referring to a minority of noisy hate-driven activists. None of the L,G,B or T people that I have known personally* would come under that banner; they seem to be open-minded and supportive of anyone who is struggling because they are 'different'. Most of them have had a rough time and they are sympathetic to others in the same position.


* 2x gay male, 2x lesbian, 1x FtM, 3x MtF, 1x TV/TG and 1x Intergender (myself).

This has the makings of a very good discussion because the issue isn't black or white, but rather many shades of gray.

After a google search on the subject, most of what I find is related to other countries. I did find this article from all the way back in 2009. However, a lot has changed since 2009, so I don't know how accurate this still is:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/08/fashi ... .html?_r=0

The article poses some interesting points, such as student safety and distractions. Bullying is a big problem in public schools, and a lone boy who may have already been a social outcast wearing a skirt could frankly get the crap kicked out of him over and over again. On the other hand, a boy who was in more of a popular circle, probably wouldn't want to wear a skirt in public for fear that it would isolate him from his other peers.

I believe most school age kids generally would prefer to stick with the status quo, as school can already be stressful enough as it is without striking out such a bold move of individuality. I believe that same holds true to young adults, and a good statistic is the age poll on this very website. Frankly, the older one gets, the less one seems to give a damn about what society thinks.

For the underage youth, societies view on him/her is everything. I myself wasn't enormously popular in school, and I can flat out say, that in my state of mind back then, there is no way I would have even considered wearing a skirt then. Believe me, I didn't need that kind of attention.

That being said, in a fun hypothetical situation, if I could take my current brain and put it back in that 16 year olds head, I would definitely give it a shot! (among other changes, to numerous to mention here) Granted, that would put us back in the late 90's, and politics were somewhat different then, but I'd do it, and defend my right to!

Which also raises another point. Judging from the discussions I've had with my own high school daughter, most youths are generally clueless about their rights. And to be fair, I am not to clear about them either, even at my current age. It is a proven fact that the constitution doesn't apply to minors (they can't vote after all). I've also been told, and have seen evidence that the primary custodian of all children in the U.S. rest with the state FIRST and the parents or legal guardian SECOND. As the schools represent the state, then they would have a big say in how students are to dress. But I'm not sure. Again, underage legalities are something I haven't really researched much, and are somewhat unclear to me. But I can back this up with some actual fact.... if you think the state doesn't have any say at all, send your child to school in rags a few times, and see how long it takes for child protective services to show up at your door.

I'd like to note that the point of the paragraph above was NOT to debate the legal guardianship of children, nor the role of the state or CPS, (which is a very lengthy debate not meant for this thread or website) but rather to point out some discussion points on how children would be allowed to dress in the public arena, and who sets the final "rules" on the matter.

As I don't have a son, I can not possibly test anything here in Damascus. The closest I can come is through Amber and her stories that she brings home. From what she tells me, there are a few homosexuals in her school, and she reports that they are generally "open" about it, and are not harassed as a result. She has often joked (maybe it wasn't a joke) that if I ever have to go to her school for whatever reason she wants me to go skirted. I'm not sure if that's a good idea or not. Even Amber may not be able to fully appreciate the bullying she may encounter as a result of such a move, at least that was my position back in August, however now she reports that pretty much everyone in her classes know about it now, and quite a few seem to approve, and I haven't heard of any protest at all. So we'll see. Schools are shaky ground for a 34 year old skirt wearing man. And I believe schools could be considered "public/private property", which tells me that they would most likely have legal ground to tell ME that I can not come to the school dressed like that.

I don't mind the community thinking I'm gay, but I really don't want the reputation of a pedophile.

Which brings me to Carl's response to the LGBT community. While again, there really isn't a lot of hard facts of actual students trying this to gauge a good hypothesis, I would certainly hope that like pelmut pointed out, they would come to the aid of any group that was falling under persecution. And considering that male skirt wearing, while not homosexual in and of itself, still is viewed by the ignorant as a "homosexual" thing, I do believe that the LGBT community DOES have a dog in that fight, and they would do well to support us. However that remains to be seen.

I personally take the position of freedom for all. That's why on issues I stand by the right to self expression. I even support the right to hate (non violently of course). While I don't agree with bigoted confederate flag waving conservatives, I'll stand with them in their fight to freely express their views, even if they cast stones at me for joining their protest with a skirt on. (what a slap of irony) We all get on a slippery slope when we start to say.... well this type of expression is okay, but not that kind. Then we have to ask ourselves "who are the moral police?"

Much like a lyric I heard off of one of my old 78RPM records I used to collect, it was a somewhat patriotic song of the late 40's that went something like "While I may not agree with you, I'll fight for your right to say it"... something like that. I can't remember who performed it.

Very good discussion, quite thought provoking.

pelmut wrote:

crfriend wrote:The LGBT crowd will look after their own. They don't care, and perhaps actively dislike, straight guys. I would not look for support from that corner any more than a guy might expect sympathetic treatment at a women's support facility.

I hope your use of the word "crowd" means that you are only referring to a minority of noisy hate-driven activists. None of the L,G,B or T people that I have known personally* would come under that banner; they seem to be open-minded and supportive of anyone who is struggling because they are 'different'. Most of them have had a rough time and they are sympathetic to others in the same position.

Agreed. They and we all seek acceptance despite our eccentricities.

pelmut wrote:* 2x gay male, 2x lesbian, 1x FtM, 3x MtF, 1x TV/TG and 1x Intergender (myself).

You got me on this one. Are these counts of people you've known? Or what?

High-schoolers can be very exclusionary as a way to strengthen and identify their clique, but they can also be very supportive of anyone trying to buck the system.

I'm still amazed that my recent high school reunion featured a genderqueer float in the parade.

pelmut wrote:I hope your use of the word "crowd" means that you are only referring to a minority of noisy hate-driven activists.

Correct. When I use a term such as "crowd" there is a strong hint of herd- or mob- mentality in it. Usually I find individuals quite easy to converse with and get along with; group-think and herd-mentality I have a very difficult time with simply because it seems to be so irrational.

Sure, I know some pig-headed individuals, but I try to steer clear of those as being too unpleasant to be around for extended periods of time.

A very positive sign, all things considered. About 3 years ago, my new GF's Sister made the comment that her 3 year old boy, upon seeing his Grandma in a dress for the first time said "Hi Nan!" Startled look, 'What are you wearing!" "A dress" "Cool! Can I get one?"

"Looks like we're going dress shopping tomorrow"

As it happened, he forgot about it, but she was quite willing to let him try one. The boy, and his Sister now, have seen me several times in skirts, but haven't so much as blinked.

Caultron wrote:

pelmut wrote: None of the L,G,B or T people that I have known personally* would come under that banner

* 2x gay male, 2x lesbian, 1x FtM, 3x MtF, 1x TV/TG and 1x Intergender (myself).

You got me on this one. Are these counts of people you've known? Or what?

Yes, these are the people I know well enough to be reasonably sure they are supportive of others who may have 'labels' different from themselves. There are also several members of this group who have mentioned that they are (or perhaps suspect that they might be) 'bi' or 'trans' - and they are obviously open-minded supporters of skirt wearing.

The abbreviations are:
FtM = Female to male transgendered = Transman
MtF = Male to female transgendered = Transwoman
TV = Transvestite = Crossdresser
TG = Transgender (but not transitioning).

That would be interesting, to say the least.

However, I think it would be unlikely downunder, I heard this morning on the radio a mother of a girl at a Catholic school here in Brisbane telling the world that the school was actively discriminating against the girls, by requiring them to wear skirts, and not allowing them to wear pants.
Her argument was that the school is not above the law and cannot discriminate on the basis of sex.

Now someone (the more, the merrier) needs to call up and state that the school should not discriminate on the basis of sex, and allow all students, to wear whatever item of school uniform they wanted, therefore if it was good enough to allow girls to wear pants, it would be good enough to allow the boys to wear skirts...

It's a two-way street, however, in reality as many of us find, it is anything but a two-way street.