skirtcafe.org

JohnH wrote: I used to wear nail polish on my fingernails but that was too high maintenance since I cannot stand chipped nail polish.

That's why I wear gel over acrylic for fingernails. Otherwise, not only does the polish get chipped, so does the nail!

Regular polish is fine for toenails though.

I love painting my toenails and have a few different colours. Wife hates it so I have to keep it covered, but it makes me feel good to know my feet look good. I used to only paint them when I was 'allowed' to wear it and skirts etc, then take it off take it all off and go back to being boring! I had to get rid of all my skirts etc recently to save my mariage as the wife really hates it, but we had a talk and now I have two skirts from charity shops and can wear them when she is out. I also paint my finger nails every chance I get, which is not often, and I think it looks great too. I have tried many colours (glittery red, glittery pink, gun metal grey being my faves). I don't like blue as I don't think it suits me and plain nail polish, without glitter, don't suit me either. I don't see anything wrong with wearing what you are comfortable wearing and would probably try wearing skirts out and painted nails, sandals etc, if I could persuade her in doors, but as I can't see that happening I will stick to keeping my toe nails painted and covered.

In reading the post by "guyinnadress" above I am beginning to come to the conclusion that the active suppression of experimentation and non-acceptance of experimentation may actually drive guys to further extremes than they might otherwise go if left to their own devices. Especially pernicious in this is the sometime need to hide one's behaviours, and I suspect that can be very damaging indeed over the long run, leading to stress, confusion, conflict, and depression. This goes for both external (e.g. spousal) and internal suppression ("self-censorship").

The level of rigidity already imposed (both externally and internally) on men is astounding, and it only seems to be tightening up. Compared to today, things in the 1960s and '70s were positively laid back; men won the right to grow their hair out, wear earrings, and generally experiment with their own sense of style vastly moreso than now (and this did include the occasional skirt). Then, something changed drastically in the early 1980s and all that progress was lost within about 5 years, and it's been growing progressively repressive since then. There are small renegade groups that try to keep the fires of hope and style alight (like this group), but those are very marginalised in general society meaning that we have to try much harder to gain acceptance when we're dressed "outside the norm" than when we are. This creates internal stresses within us that we cannot control; more pernicious is when someone close to us does the same thing, and I suspect it's that stressor that causes some guys to go to the extreme of "orthodox crossdressing" as a form of stress-relief (much akin to a safety-valve popping open on a steam-boiler).

I have no concrete answers to this but figured I'd offer the observation.

crfriend wrote:Then, something changed drastically in the early 1980s and all that progress was lost within about 5 years ...

I blame Margaret Thatcher!

Oh it's so good to get an opportunity to use that phrase again! She is too far in the past to be blamed for many of the ills of the 21st century. Even "I blame George Bush" is pushing it a bit nowadays, and somehow "I blame David Cameron" just isn't as satisfying!

I blame the weather!! 2012 has been so consistently wet that large areas of our grounds & garden which we used to keep mown have been so squelchy & sodden that we have had to abandon them to exist as watermeadow.

Now that's a long way from putting nail polish on, which I must say I never have any reason to do. The guitarist's need to stick strengthening overlays on was interesting though, but as for putting it on just for decoration....Pass!

T.

crfriend wrote: Compared to today, things in the 1960s and '70s were positively laid back; men won the right to grow their hair out, wear earrings, and generally experiment with their own sense of style vastly moreso than now (and this did include the occasional skirt). Then, something changed drastically in the early 1980s and all that progress was lost within about 5 years, and it's been growing progressively repressive since then.

I don't think all that progress was lost. Men's earring acceptance has continued to grow, and there is much more awareness of LGBT issues including "gender expression", which has been written into legislation in various localities. I am optimistic that skirt wearing is greater than it was then, and that today's technologies (e.g. this forum) are allowing for greater freedom of expression through greater acceptance and understanding of that expression.

skirtingtheissue wrote: ... today's technologies (e.g. this forum) are allowing for greater freedom of expression through greater acceptance and understanding of that expression.

I don't know about that, but it certainly lets you know you are not the only one, which I found to be a huge help.

i actually like to have colours on my nails and i paint the toenails in darkblue colour and the handnails in clear nail polish. that is, i don't make it too obvious, but i don't hide my hands and feet. i think that it does not bother anybody after having contemplated my shoes, tights, and skirt actually, everything works fine for me.

I enjoy wearing nail and toe polish, too. I'm not always feminine about it and am trying to make new masculine designs. Bolder lines, manly patterns, tougher textures, etc. I'm keeping a nail journal complete with pictures these days. I don't want to forget some of the designs I loved and be able to show others my handiwork.

crfriend wrote:In reading the post by "guyinnadress" above I am beginning to come to the conclusion that the active suppression of experimentation and non-acceptance of experimentation may actually drive guys to further extremes than they might otherwise go if left to their own devices. Especially pernicious in this is the sometime need to hide one's behaviours, and I suspect that can be very damaging indeed over the long run, leading to stress, confusion, conflict, and depression. This goes for both external (e.g. spousal) and internal suppression ("self-censorship").

The level of rigidity already imposed (both externally and internally) on men is astounding, and it only seems to be tightening up. Compared to today, things in the 1960s and '70s were positively laid back; men won the right to grow their hair out, wear earrings, and generally experiment with their own sense of style vastly moreso than now (and this did include the occasional skirt). Then, something changed drastically in the early 1980s and all that progress was lost within about 5 years, and it's been growing progressively repressive since then. There are small renegade groups that try to keep the fires of hope and style alight (like this group), but those are very marginalised in general society meaning that we have to try much harder to gain acceptance when we're dressed "outside the norm" than when we are. This creates internal stresses within us that we cannot control; more pernicious is when someone close to us does the same thing, and I suspect it's that stressor that causes some guys to go to the extreme of "orthodox crossdressing" as a form of stress-relief (much akin to a safety-valve popping open on a steam-boiler).

I have no concrete answers to this but figured I'd offer the observation.

I say there are many more men that go all the way with HRT (hormone replacement therapy) and SRS (sexual reassignment surgery) to become women than for women to become men. Carl, I see the same thing {men's clothing becoming more restrictive) with coats and ties - the only standard color for a suit is black or dark navy, and ties have only a solid color. And if a man wears women's clothing and makeup society compels him to "pass" as a women.

John

I also like to wear nail varnish with coloured on toes and clear on hands. On this forum we talk about liking various things normally associated with females - nail varnish, heels and so on yet talk about not wanting to look like women. To continue this theme I have concluded that it's not the individual things but the number of them in combination. For instance I have long hair normally worn in a ponytail because to wear it down makes me look feminine. But if I were to wear a skirt, nail varnish, makeup and heels as well then I would feel as if I was x-dressing. So I guess for me hair + 2 others would be the maximum for my comfort zone. I would only feel comfortable wearing heels indoors although others are comfortable wearing them out. What about you others? What would push your comfort zone?

I have a masculine looking face and a very deep voice. Even if I wore a dress with heels and makeup, along with a feminine haircut and my feminine body shape (breasts and hips) people would have no problem determining I am male.

John

JohnH wrote:I have a masculine looking face and a very deep voice. Even if I wore a dress with heels and makeup, along with a feminine haircut and my feminine body shape (breasts and hips) people would have no problem determining I am male.

But how about from a distance and before they've had a chance to hear you? That "first impression" may happen from quite a distance.

I say there are many more men that go all the way with HRT (hormone replacement therapy) and SRS (sexual reassignment surgery) to become women than for women to become men.

I suspect that this is because there is still a substantial gap when it comes to status equality between men and women. This is why it's OK to be perceived as "gaining status" (as is the case with women dressing as men) and why it's NOT OK to "lose status" (the other way 'round). Until that inequality is addressed we'll continue to have this conundrum. Once men and women are perceived societally as equals this issue will go away, and I will be among the very first to make sure that it gets hit in the backside by the closing door! However, I do not see that happening any time soon as we plumb our way into a new Dark Age.

Sinned wrote:On this forum we talk about liking various things normally associated with females - nail varnish, heels and so on yet talk about not wanting to look like women. To continue this theme I have concluded that it's not the individual things but the number of them in combination.

In this case, I believe it's down to two things: (1) the individual's "tipping-point" and (2) society's "tipping-point" regarding what's "acceptable" or not. Each of us have our own, and society in one's locale likely has another; balancing those is an art. Personally, I tend to take my own tipping-point as the datum and not get too close to it; if I find that I am disturbed by the visage in the mirror (or, more accurately, a photograph; pictures are less "forgiving" than the mirror) or do not recognise myself therein, I will not cultivate that look or style in public.

It's worth noting that I pretty much cannot be "mistaken for a woman" (I'd make a really nad one anyway) as I'm big (in the 99th percentile for height in the USA and one could well add a nine or two following the decimal for women), sport facial hair, and, even though I have a waist-length ponytail (which I sometimes wear "down"), other cues mark me as unmistakably male. However, even I have managed to push things to the point where I got somewhat "wigged out" by the "man in the mirror" -- and those are looks that I will not use in public (and usually do not repeat even in private). So it's a matter of degree.

ChrisM came up with the rather intuitive "Rule of One" (i.e. "One item of 'feminine' apparel at a time") which works, although with the length of my hair I seem to find myself routinely violating it as I like tying it back with various barettes, bows, and whatnot. Go figure.

Carl (crfriend),

I have been ma'amed occasionally. That does not bother me but I do prefer to be "sir'ed". I am not worried at all if someone mistakes me for a woman - you don't see women worrying about being mistaken as men. However, I make absolutely no effort to "pass" as a woman.

Speaking about "the rule of one": A few narrow minded individuals interpret if any one thing is typical of women's items (e.g., skirts) the man wearing it must be a pervert. You can't please those people unless you adhere to the rigid guidelines expected of men.

John

JohnH wrote: I say there are many more men that go all the way with HRT (hormone replacement therapy) and SRS (sexual reassignment surgery) to become women than for women to become men. Carl, I see the same thing {men's clothing becoming more restrictive) with coats and ties - the only standard color for a suit is black or dark navy, and ties have only a solid color. And if a man wears women's clothing and makeup society compels him to "pass" as a women.

This does tie into something I've been saying for years now...

Because society denied beauty to men, the only way most men who are desiring beauty for themselves is to become a woman as much as possible. Thus the number of MtF trans-whatevers you see.

But in an absolute sense, its not true at all. I wear skirts, have long hair, wear earrings (I'm famous for them) and other jewelry, paint my nails, wear makeup, have my eyebrows "done" and a facial every 3 weeks, am a Belly Dancer, blah, blah, blah - and I am, and remain, a guy with no apologies for that fact.