Dresses

[davereporter]

Sashi,

Unfortunately sewing, like any other hands on craft is not really something you can learn from books or the Internet. You are best off finding a good open minded sewing teacher with supportive classmates. Personally I take private lessons in a group of 3 and the teacher ensures that my classmates are open minded enough to not care who I am making the skirt for. Hey we don't even have a change room so if you are going to fit something you need to wear nice knickers

Gore, the shape and turning 2D into 3D are only part of the problem as the fabric that you choose will make an incredible difference to how the garment looks and feels. For example clothing made with stretch denim will behave very differently to silk or delicate chiffon. Taffeta (think ball gowns) is a real pain to sew as it shows every crease or defect both in the garment and the wearer - mind you if you have the body and fit to pull it off it is stunning.

The next variable with skirt making is fit v ease of movement v difficulty in wearing. For example a mini skirt provides great ease of movement however you always have to be careful how you wear it not to expose yourself. A pencil skirt if too tight will ride up (again care with wearing if above the knees) and is difficult to stride in (think ladders and stairs), A line skirts tend to provide a reasonable compromise BUT if the A is too wide and you don't have large hips it will not fit well and tends to look "girly" as it emphasises the hips. Long skirts present even more problems as flowing skirts tend to be high maintenance (needing to tuck in the fabric, avoiding looking like a tea caddy, not tripping over the fabric when climbing up stairs or over rocks), pencil skirts severely restrict movement (think penguin) and require a slit which tends to look feminine (unless you personally go for the peek a boo look with your legs). One solution is to put a kick (a wider part around the lower part of the skirt) but again, too much kick and you will look "girly".

To date I have solved the problems with knee length skirts for me (and I happen to have round hips so women's clothes fit me infinitely better than mens' clothes) but have given up on longer skirts as I cannot find the balance between comfort, fit and ease of movement. Mind you I am rather conservative and don't like to look at all feminine and tend to be influenced a lot by my family and sewing class's opinions.

The easiest skirt to make is a wrap skirt - firstly it looks like a lava lava or sulu (islander skirt) so people CAN put you in a box that doesn't say TV/CD/Pervert, secondly it is easy to fit, thirdly if you make the wrap wide enough you can move freely without showing anything. I recommend the Burda 8278 (if you go to a sewing shop and ask for that you will get the right pattern) modified if necessary to allow for a smaller waist to hip ratio (put simply enlarge the waist by several inches and bring in the hip as most guys don't have curves). You may also want to increase the wrap length (and corresponding yoke) to make it easier to wear.

Good luck.

Dave

[Bob]

I think you have to just make something once. Then figure out everything you did wrong and re-make the same thing. Then it will fit and look right. The first try is just a draft.

[Sashi]

Unfortunately sewing, like any other hands on craft is not really something you can learn from books or the Internet. You are best off finding a good open minded sewing teacher with supportive classmates. Personally I take private lessons in a group of 3 and the teacher ensures that my classmates are open minded enough to not care who I am making the skirt for.

Aww, that's not fair. Of course, since I've never really done many hands on things (I'm more of a computer-based person), I wouldn't know about the difficulties of self-teaching a hands on craft. From what my sister says, most sewing classes would love to have a guy in them, but I'd say you are probably right about finding one that is open-minded.

To date I have solved the problems with knee length skirts for me (and I happen to have round hips so women's clothes fit me infinitely better than mens' clothes) but have given up on longer skirts as I cannot find the balance between comfort, fit and ease of movement. Mind you I am rather conservative and don't like to look at all feminine and tend to be influenced a lot by my family and sewing class's opinions.

I don't know how much trouble I'll have with fit, comfort, and ease of movement, but I'm not massively conservative (I try to be as open as possible), so I'll be less concerned about looking feminine than some would. Thanks for all the information though, as it has been quite informative for me.

I think you have to just make something once. Then figure out everything you did wrong and re-make the same thing. Then it will fit and look right. The first try is just a draft.

Maybe, but maybe not as well. You may fix all your original problems only to find that you've introduced new ones, or didn't properly fix the old ones. Of course, with enough practice things like that will be eliminated more or less. Just have to try and try again until you can get the skills down :ninjajig:

[crfriend]

I think you have to just make something once. Then figure out everything you did wrong and re-make the same thing. Then it will fit and look right. The first try is just a draft.

Maybe, but maybe not as well. You may fix all your original problems only to find that you've introduced new ones, or didn't properly fix the old ones. Of course, with enough practice things like that will be eliminated more or less. Just have to try and try again until you can get the skills down :ninjajig:

Since you understand things in a computer context, try looking at the matter as a manifestation of the "second system effect". For those that don't get the reference, the second system effect, to paraphrase, states, "When designing any complex system, plan to throw the first one away because you will wind up doing it a second time, much better than the first time 'round."

If you're good with your hands, can read, and are nimble of mind, then you can make surprising progress on your own. True, having a qualified teacher will speed the process up, but if you're willing to expend the effort -- and not get discouraged when the inevitable goes wrong (it will) -- you'll find you can learn hand-crafts on your own. The key is to be critical of one's own work, and to really investigate why something didn't (or DID!) work and change one's techniques accordingly.

[ChrisM]

As a consequence of the Second System effect...

Suggest you build your first garment out of an inexpensive fabric, saving the "good stuff" for the second system.

Pick a fabric with generally similar stretch characteristics, so that the mechanics of the garment will be similar, but also pick a fabric that won't hurt too much if you have to scrap it all.

As for me, well let's just say that in most of my projects it takes until the THIRD system....

Chris

[Sashi]

"When designing any complex system, plan to throw the first one away because you will wind up doing it a second time, much better than the first time 'round."

Ugh, I know how that can be. It's like this large software project I'm doing for myself. I've already scrapped the first iteration of it because it was generally inferior to various changes I have thought of, even though it hadn't been completely developed. I've never heard of the second system effect before now though, but it does make sense and I can see how it would apply to learning how to make clothes, among other crafts.

As for self-teaching, the biggest problem for me is motivation. I may really want to learn it, yet I can't motivate myself to do the work. I managed to learn various web design technologies completely through self-teaching, but for some reason my ability to do that seems to have diminished recently. I'll probably be able to self-teach some aspects of sewing to myself, but taking a class couldn't hurt either. It may even help my in keeping up self-teaching of different aspects of it at home.

Suggest you build your first garment out of an inexpensive fabric, saving the "good stuff" for the second system.

I wouldn't even know the "good stuff" from the "bad stuff", to tell you the truth. I know so little about fabrics, and what feels like what or what does what or is useful for what. Wow, that was a lot of "whats". That's something I'll just have to pick up over time. Either way that is a good idea.

[crfriend]

As for self-teaching, the biggest problem for me is motivation. I may really want to learn it, yet I can't motivate myself to do the work. I managed to learn various web design technologies completely through self-teaching, but for some reason my ability to do that seems to have diminished recently. I'll probably be able to self-teach some aspects of sewing to myself, but taking a class couldn't hurt either. It may even help my in keeping up self-teaching of different aspects of it at home.

The only way to really go about learning something -- and having the knowledge stick -- is to have a "need" to learn. "Need" here is a variable, but you really need a way to put newfound knowledge to work and to immediately see the results of it. I've seen this countless times with people who, for instance, want to "learn computers"; the first question out of my mouth given that notion is, "What do you want to *do* with a computer?" because if there's not a concrete goal that they can reach, understand, and appreciate, then the exercise is a wasted one for everybody involved.

If you want to take up sewing, come up with a design you want to execute, learn the techniques required to bring the project to fruition, and just do it. You'll stumble; that's natural. You'll get frustrated and angry; that's natural, too. In the end, though, if you stick with it, you'll prevail and have something to show for your efforts, both physical and mental.

I wouldn't even know the "good stuff" from the "bad stuff", to tell you the truth. I know so little about fabrics, and what feels like what or what does what or is useful for what. Wow, that was a lot of "whats". That's something I'll just have to pick up over time. Either way that is a good idea.

I think that ChrisM's suggestion was leaning toward was not to use very expensive fabric to start out with because you will make mistakes and you'll feel a lot worse botching something that costs $50 a yard than $5. Understand that the first (and sometimes second) piece you make will be a prototype; it'll be a learning exercise where the knowledge gained is more important than the finished garment. Also, pick fabrics that are easy to work with when constructing your prototype; I doubt that you want to dive right into working with something as slippery as satin as an introduction to sewing.

Muslin works well as a prototyping fabric; in fact a very good friend of mine designed her own wedding gown and did her prototype in muslin because she wanted the practise before executing the finished product in satin -- in her own words, "a wise choice". The design was more complex than she'd anticipated, and if she'd gone directly to the finish fabric she'd have messed it up irretrieveably; the prototype saved her a lot of grief. (She also used the prototype as a functional garment whilst she learned how to walk gracefully in it; she was always a "tr*ousers only" lass and knew that she'd need practise manoeuvering in something as alien as a gown.)

[AndrewH]

I may have missed this in the posts to Sashi about buying skirts, but some were talking about knowing your waist size before shopping.

May I say that, as my shape is such that my waist is not much smaller than my hips, I find it better to buy skirts that fit my hips rather than my waist. So I measure my hips, use a size guide to get a skirt size from that (in my case UK 16 - 18, depending on cut) and then buy that size with an elasticated waist band that will stretch enough to fit my waist.

If I went by waist size, I would buy a UK 20-22, and that would be far to big in the hips to look good.

[AndrewH]

And back to dresses, I have managed to find a dress that fits me - from M&S (in UK), size 22.

So, just after Christmas, I went to buy a full slip to wear under it. Found a brilliant long slip, again in M&S Took it to the counter to pay, and the young lad serving casually asked it it was for me - so I said yes, and he didn't believe me, just laughing as if I was joking. I let it go at that. But an interesting episode - was he just cheeky, or a wearer himself, or what??

[Sashi]

If you want to take up sewing, come up with a design you want to execute, learn the techniques required to bring the project to fruition, and just do it. You'll stumble; that's natural. You'll get frustrated and angry; that's natural, too. In the end, though, if you stick with it, you'll prevail and have something to show for your efforts, both physical and mental.

Actually, I do have some design ideas (skirt-wise for now, working on coming up with dress ideas) that I would kill to have. The physical design isn't so special as is the... umm, imagery, colors, et cetera are. Sinks in quite nicely with one of my three biggest hobbies, and is something I just have to have at some point or another. Maybe if it turns out nicely I could make more and sell them on eBay, if there would be any interest in them (probably mainly among people my age give, or take a decade). Either way it would work as a motivator and as an interesting experiment in funky design.

I may have missed this in the posts to Sashi about buying skirts, but some were talking about knowing your waist size before shopping.

May I say that, as my shape is such that my waist is not much smaller than my hips, I find it better to buy skirts that fit my hips rather than my waist. So I measure my hips, use a size guide to get a skirt size from that (in my case UK 16 - 18, depending on cut) and then buy that size with an elasticated waist band that will stretch enough to fit my waist.

If I went by waist size, I would buy a UK 20-22, and that would be far to big in the hips to look good.

And back to dresses, I have managed to find a dress that fits me - from M&S (in UK), size 22.

So, just after Christmas, I went to buy a full slip to wear under it. Found a brilliant long slip, again in M&S Took it to the counter to pay, and the young lad serving casually asked it it was for me - so I said yes, and he didn't believe me, just laughing as if I was joking. I let it go at that. But an interesting episode - was he just cheeky, or a wearer himself, or what??

I'm curious here as to what you, and while I'm at it the community in general, refers to when they talk about the waist. For some I know it's used specifically for the natural waist, while others it's used for the belt line. Maybe there are other areas, but those would be the two most common if I'm not mistaken. For me I basically don't even acknowledge the natural waist as being there, and have always referred to my belt line as my waist. It's only recently I've even been introduced to the concept of the natural waist, since until I started looking into something (possibly involved with the MiS movement) I had no need to be aware of it.

As for finding a dress and whatnot that fits you, congrats. I have no idea what the guy at the counter was, although I'd be edging more towards cheeky, as you said. So I must ask, have you been out in the dress yet?

Well, it is now 2 am here and way past when I should have been in bed (should've gone to bed at midnight), so I'll be heading off now.

[AndrewH]

I'm curious here as to what you, and while I'm at it the community in general, refers to when they talk about the waist.

I have seen the "natural waistline" defined as approx 1" below the belly button for men and 1 " above the belly button for ladies - but of course it depends greatly on the individual shape!

As to the dress, I don't wear out of the house at present.

[eleventhdr]

And why the hell not I mean I mean just look at it women have had the rights to wear our cloths now for decades now!

But we are still denied the right to wear what we really do want to wear and be at long last comfortable in doing so.

I mean imean do we all have to chnage our sex and or something in order to wear what we really do want to wear.

Why can not males wear what ever they want to wear withput being weird or something.

I will be wearing skirts and or dresses just as soon as someone comes out with them.

I ma oh so tired of being locked into pant jeans.

And shorts are not an option for a whole lot of mlaes we wnt to wear what we want to wear and so be it!

And then I will wear also underneath what I want to wear just as well you will see.

Jay!
so come on think!

[Sylvain]

Go to Tom's Cafe archives and have a look at the robes Frostybeard has designed for himself.

[binx]

And then I will wear also underneath what I want to wear just as well you will see.

Jay!
so come on think!

Welcome to the Cafe! But I'd rather not see that.:shake:

binx

[kiltair]

Eleventh,

Please allow me to disagree on most points.

"But we are still denied the right.." Who denies you what? I'm wearing a skirt/kilt/dress for 90% of the time during the last 10 years. I worked for a large US computer company during the last 5 years, got pay raises, etc.. and still wore my skirt to work... Just be sensible...

"I mean imean do we all have to chnage our sex.." no of course not. You get the most respect from others when you behave like a man who stands for the principles he believes in.

"I will be wearing skirts and or dresses just as soon as someone comes out with them." There are already a lot of fashion designers having male skirts. They are not yet mainstream, but what the hell, my wife also prefers to buy clothes from unknown designers. Utilitikilts are maybe the easiest available in the US, with the widest choice.

I often perceive some jealousy against women because they can wear 'whatever they want'. They have indeed a larger choice, but they cannot be blamed. If someone is to blame, it's the average male for being content to stay obstinately conservative and not embrace change.

Jan