MOTIVATIONS

[Ray]

An interesting exercise.

Like any attempt to define the complex into discrete boxes,it’s fundamentally flawed - but it’s a fascinating set of boxes.

I’m 90% screwdriver, 10% tattoo. The former is my logical thinking; the latter is my refusal to adhere to arbitrary rules. I don’t wear jeans. They are a sterile uniform whose material is uncomfortable. I wear red and orange trousers instead. Why? Because I like colour and I’m unconcerned about others’ views of them.

There you go. I’ve spent most of this post talking about the 10%! The 90% has been discussed ad nauseum.

[Jim]

This is a good exercise in self-examination.

I'd primarily be Mr. Screwdriver. I started skirt wearing because I had regular irritation in the groin. Skirt-wearing ended it. In addition, most skirts I wear are more comfortable than trousers or shorts. Going nude would be best when it's not too cold, but that's less socially acceptable in most places than skirts and dresses. (60%)

Another motivation is like Mr. Tattoo. I am primarily expressing I am against sexual discrimination. My wife and I got into an unpleasant situation due to such discrimination. She likes to go without a shirt the same way that I do when it's hot, and I support her in this. So I am willing to take a bit of disapproval to show my solidarity with her. (25%)

I also sometimes have some affiliation with Mr Lipstick. I enjoy lace and satin and bright colors. I experimented with nylon, satin, or lace underwear for the skin problem (it helped some) and didn't mind the easier-to-find choices in this category were marketed to women. Sometimes there is a slight erotic edge to wearing "women's" wear that I am a bit uncomfortable with morally, so maybe I'm downplaying this aspect a bit. (15%)

[DrFishnets]

I’m mostly Mr Screwdriver. I started with wearing leggings because I found them so comfortable with extra flexibility when walking or doing other exercise compared to trousers or jeans. However, I wasn’t happy that my man bulge was showing so I trekked the shops for a long t-shirt or top but couldn’t find any which resulted in my shopping in the women's clothes department and finding T-shirt mini dresses which are very comfortable and awesome.

Since then I’ve been buying skirts, kilts and dresses and I haven’t looked back. I also sometimes wear 100 denier tights but it’s usually leggings. So the reason I dress in skirts, leggings, tights and dresses is because I find wearing them very comfortable and I like the look and I dress for myself and no one else. I’m not looking for attention when I dress so I’m not Mr Tattoo. However, there has been times that I’ve fantasised about being a woman but I’m happy being a heterosexual guy and I wouldn’t dream of surgery. So,I’m Mr Screwdriver with a bit of Mr Lipstick.

[Grok]

I would describe myself as functionally Screwdriver.

Consider other motivations:

1. Initially-novelty. Trying on something so different to trousers.

2. Aesthetics. Even a fairly simple skirt can have an elegance that is lacking in trousers.*

3. Fun. Consider the flow-y, twirl-y skirts worn at contra dances.

4. Rebellion. In this case, against a Taboo that is irrational.

* Men can look good in a variety of skirted rigs. See various images posted by members.

[JohnH]

I'm definitely Mr, Lipstick. I wear trousers only seldom, such as when I went to my mother's recent funeral visitation and service. With other family interactions with respect to the funeral I wore dresses.
I am even on estrogen and have developed a feminine appearance, but I retain my male name and gender designation. Also I retain my masculine bass voice. I always have painted nails and when I go out, I apply lipstick. If it's a formal event, I use eye makeup and frequently wear heels.
A new choir member, a woman, was wondering where the bass voice was coming from, as my appearance blended in with the women.

John

[Sepchugang]

Thank you Stu for initiating this thread - it has made me think and has produced some really thoughtful and insightful responses from others. It is of course a very western way of analysing MIS as in quite a few countries it is not something that men really need to think about as skirt wearing by men is common practice.

In my case I think I’ve changed ever since I took the plunge and openly started to wear skirts, first at home where I had to deal with my OH’s initial resistance and later out in public. Before that, like some others on here, I ‘borrowed’ my OH’s clothes in secret and dressed as a woman although I don’t think I actually wanted to be a woman - I just liked wearing her clothes as they were so much more interesting than my own. As I have got older I care less about conventions and ‘what others think’ so about two years ago I bought a denim skirt and started wearing it. Since then I’ve bought about ten different skirts and what I like is that they are my skirts and I enjoy wearing them as my clothes since they are so much more comfortable than jeans or shorts. I have also bought tights to go with them. I guess this makes me a 5 on the Screwdriver spectrum. The other two categories are harder to score. I don’t particularly want to stand out but equally I’m not much bothered about what others think so maybe a 2 for Tattoo. Lipstick is a bit harder. I genuinely think people should be encouraged to wear whatever they want (within decency limits) and not be dictated to by social conventions so perhaps I am a 4 on Genderpunk. As for Femboy I have no desire to portray as female, I don’t wear lipstick or earrings etc. but do have two ‘extras’ which some people see as feminine attributes. I shave my legs and I have very long hair. Mostly I wear my hair in a pony tail but sometimes I just let it all hang down, so maybe I’m a 2 on Femboy.

[Faldaguy]

My initial response to this was -- one more attempt to put us in boxes; and I've sat on the sidelines watching what happens.  Mostly, I see an acceptance that these three boxes -- now expanded a bit, are being accepted without limitations.  Granted, they cover a fairly wide spectrum of the expressed reasons MIS offer. 

It appears that most of us like Screwdrivers -- easy, utilitarian, refreshing -- but any imbiber knows you can add almost any kind of fruit for a more exotic taste.  Fewer of us wish to call attention to our eccentricities as we've been conditioned to be dull so poor Tattoo is not even allowed to work unless hiding under an opaque cover; and Lipstick, well, they've been relegated to Streetwalker notoriety.    

At the starting line, we have Screwdriver, Tattoo and Lipstick watching for the green flag; & few others wannabes on the sidelines with me.  I really don't have any qualms about the multitude of screwdrivers as most of us do seem to appreciate the comfort and freedom skirts offer.  I don't wear lipstick but concede I do like the feel, color, expression, and carefree feelings that come from skirts -- BUT, it strikes me this is merely admitting there is a broader spectrum of emotions within masculinity than hate and violence.  I'm am not tied to only the 'permissible' attributes of macho -- I can and do have other aspects to me as a male; and having those feelings/senses does NOT paint us with lipstick.  

("Femboy I find derogatory, maybe no less so than Tomboy -- but both are negatively applied.)  What traits we happen to exhibit at any given time does not make us any less valid regardless of our gender.

There is an aspect of both Screwdriver and Lipstick, maybe even a touch of Tattoo that helps me with the Proselytizer, Change Agent (Influencer these days?), Educator and Peace Advocate that I am in my skirts.  I don't want people 'to look at me' I want them to look at themselves!  My skirts, (I think/hope) make people ask questions, even to think and wonder why, not to explain me -- but to understand themselves -- to maybe start to grasp they are the ones in a Box.  I don't like boxes, I don't think they are conducive to growth unless you are only after fungus.  Putting men in skirts, despite their screwdriver benefits, is not my objective -- but it is a tool that may open minds; it may help people see the rut of conformity they are in --not just in attire; but in nearly all aspects of their lives.  When we wake up to truly see the straight-jackets we are all in, economically, psychologically, socially, politically, spiritually,  then maybe we will start to make progress as a species.  

I don't think Tattoo applies even though I do hope people notice and ask their questions, to me or themselves; but the desire to be noticed is not driven by wanting personal attention.  In fact, in some ways my efforts to look pleasing, something that seldom concerned me in male drab, is to fit in without shocking people.  I don't want them to reject males in skirts because it looks bad or is attention seeking, so learning enough about color, fabric, and style to at least not be dismissed as merely weird, is a box of my own making.  This is a bit cowardly since I do think clothes serve primarily for decoration and protection from the elements -- and decoration needs it artists that venture out -- that is what drives the fashion industry, and guys like Mouse manage to carry it off so well that even over-the-top is clearly art and not weird.  He says he is fully a 5 on the Tattoo scale -- but is the motivation (look at me) or is there something more fundamental being said?  

Stu, I suspect we are all a blend of many motivations, a lot of which can be covered by the STL boxes, yet I suspect there are a lot of other drivers.  For some it may be simply renegade or rebellion; clearly for others it is a gender identity issue (something more core than lipstick/femboy); I've actually seen a couple of instances where it was poverty -- neither motivation nor choice was an option; and of course in some places, it is the standard or a common alternative; or even high fashion/ceremonial.  I'd invite suggestions for additional categories (boxes, if you will!).  

Moving on:  making prognostications about Outcomes seem quite a bit more speculative, and perhaps a librarian would file them under Science Fiction or Fantasy -- but hey, the genres sell regardless of facts -- kind of like some politicians!  A while back a couple of members asked AI to write about MIS -- maybe you can see what AI is projecting for Outcomes?  I'll keep watching this space!

[Mouse]

My initial response to this was -- one more attempt to put us in boxes; and I've sat on the sidelines watching what happens. Mostly, I see an acceptance that these three boxes -- now expanded a bit, are being accepted without limitations. Granted, they cover a fairly wide spectrum of the expressed reasons MIS offer.

I don't like being put into a box, however I took Stu's people as a way to look at myself in a fun and quite honest way. Therefore I jumped in with both feet.

.... -- and decoration needs it artists that venture out -- that is what drives the fashion industry, and guys like Mouse manage to carry it off so well that even over-the-top is clearly art and not weird.  He says he is fully a 5 on the Tattoo scale -- but is the motivation (look at me) or is there something more fundamental being said?  

Faldaguy, that is so nice of you to say. I said I was high on the Tattoo scale since I am realising that the "Look at me" has been creeping up on me. I am quite a shy person really, but I am on this journey, where I keep pushing the boat further out with my appearance, because I want to wear interesting stuff. But wearing interesting stuff and being shy doesn't really work. I have also realised that wearing interesting stuff and talking about it to people is great fun and leads you into to showing off. Also, it is a defence mechanism. A confident man in a skirt striding down a platform is much more intimidating than a guy skulking along the edge hopping not to be seen and spoken too.

I think I am also in a fortunate position that I am no longer hiding my appearance, from anybody. My job is fully skirted and I employ myself, I am old, so I no longer have to impress anybody. I therefore have less and less holding me back from freely expressing myself and genuinely wearing whatever I want. The main thing keeping me in check, when I am on my own, is what my brain thinks I can get away with. The problem being, every time I get away with something further out there, I come up with something more the next time. (I know rights etc. but we are discussing inner workings of my brain)

As for showing off, I am getting worse. I was walking around my local supermarket, thoroughly loving the smooth floors to walk on in 7"heels and my "Pretty" skirt. http://www.skirtcafe.org/forums/viewtop ... 45#p263845 The trouble is I want to be as good as these two ladies.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ToCQ9FhrEHU
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/-O6NX2uRVYc
https://www.instagram.com/p/DAl4KblMBtQ/
On the tube (subway) in my usual work outfit, I will stand up before my stop and hang on to the vertical pole in the middle of the carriage doors, so that all the carriage can see I am wearing a skirt. http://www.skirtcafe.org/forums/viewtop ... 53#p262653

I know I may go too far for some members, but other members may get confidence seeing what I am doing, as I get confidence from seeing jaunts by Jeff and others.

[Stu]

I'd hate anyone to think I am trying to pigeonhole people or even ask them to pigeonhole themselves, but categories can help us make sense of the world - in fact , they are essential for cognitive functioning. To illustrate: I am at this precise moment a patient on the cardiac ward. When I walk into the ward, I am confronted by a vast range of various stimuli and I have to make sense of everything virtually immediately in order to orient myself. I see a floor, windows, ceiling and doors; these are permanent and static; they fall under the category of "building". Then there are patients, visitors, nurses, doctors and cleaners and these fall under "people", with two subcategories - staff and non-staff. They are neither permanent nor static and I relate to them accordingly. Lastly, there are beds, cabinets, lamps, medical equipment etc - these can be permanent or not, and static or mobile. Call them "objects". This is a powerful way to speed up the rate at which we mentally process our environment and can relate to and interact with the various entities and phenomena within it.

Now let's apply this to men in skirts - and to ourselves - to see if it offers anything insightful, so we can better understand what's going on - and make changes if we wish. If I meet a fellow skirted male, is he wanting to (a) be comfortable and wear what the heck he likes; (b) express his personality and individuality, or (c) emphasise his femininity as a girl or, if an adult, as a woman? Or are more than one of these at play at the same time. This matters to me as I want to relate to him in a way that makes him feel safe and valued. I can tell if we have empathy in terms of motivation - or if we are different and can appreciate each other's differences. Categorisation also forces me to look inward to my own motivation. Is my interest in skirts natural and healthy? Or do I have to do some serious soul-searching - like am I just getting a thrill out of flouting sartorial conventions?

My categories are intended to offer a tool to anyone who wanted to explore this.

[Mouse]

I am at this precise moment a patient on the cardiac ward.

Oh, I hope everything goes well with whatever you are having to fix you.

My categories are intended to offer a tool to anyone who wanted to explore this.

I am loving your categories and having a lot of fun working out where I fit.

Thank you Stu and I hope you are able to leave hospital soon.

Mouse

[Stu]

Thanks Mouse.

I should be ok. I had a pacemaker fitted in July. By the end of August the site had become seriously infected. They rushed me in to have it removed with the leads and for IV antibiotics before the infection reached my heart. Then I was discharged - with no pacing. So guess what? The original symptoms returned with a vengeance and I was rushed to hospital by ambulance on Sunday and I'm being kept in until Tuesday next week when they're fitting a new pacemaker. Glad I'm not paying for it!

Glad I was able to stimulate a conversation. It seems as if not much is happening on the MIS front at the moment so it's nice to be able to generate a bit of interest.

[Mouse]

Stu, I hope things go well on Tuesday and you return to your well regulated self.

I think the cafe goes in fits and starts. I tend to check in most days and some days go by with very little posted. I also note that some corners of the cafe get very little traffic assuming posts and replays are a measure.

As you know, I am in a skirt everyday, so at the moment skirting is a big part of my life, which I am really enjoying. Having got to this point in my journey, where nobody is giving me grief for wearing a skirt, I have no reason to stop or pull back. What ever I see online or on the street, worn by others, is available to Mouse's style, assuming that I can buy or make a version which fits me and I can fund it.

I am also amused by how ordinary wearing a skirt has now become to me.

[Seb]

Stu: I wish you a speedy and safe recovery!

I too have been very interested in this thread, a good amount of thoughts have been expressed, I've also spent most of this week in the OR, but on the other side of the knife, assisting with various angiography operations, so I've not had a lot of time to write.

[Stu]

Thanks to Mouse and Seb for your kind thoughts.

[JeffB1959]

Yo, Stu! Best wishes to you!