Difficulties with partners

[Sinned]

Well MOH went out about 9:30 and I followed at about 10:00 in a black short skirt, thick black tights, a maroon dress shirt and a maroon hoodie. I had my breakfast, did some shopping and got back about 12:30. Didn't meet her but found out later that they went to the opposite side of the city. Enjoyed every minute of it and even met someone from work. She saw the skirt. I know because I saw her eyes look down then back up again.

Watching a programme at tea time about pirates - what they were really like - and it was mentioned about some of the women who dressed as men and successfully passed off as men. There was also a comment that a lot of male pirates wore very feminine clothing at times. I mentioned this to MOH and her comment was, and I quote, "Well you are a woolly woofter[1] and like the feminine."

So, I guess I now know her true feeling about me. II said nothing as there was nothing to say. I was wearing pale brown camo trousers at the time. I feel sad and moderately hurt, I suppose.

[1] over here, slang for homosexual, particularly a camp one.

Came across this article which is true of MOH and me but not sure what I can do about it apart from show it to her.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016/11/ ... et_1294849

[crfriend]

Came across this article which is true of MOH and me but not sure what I can do about it apart from show it to her.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016/11/ ... et_1294849

Just a couple of words of wisdom and enlightenment here. Fox 'News' is an oxymoron -- it's editorial, pure and simple, I suppose it's something akin to the Daily Mail or The Sun in the UK. Comical, in a satirical way, I suppose, but not exactly a trustworthy purveyor of fact or truth (the two are astonishingly different). I would not try deploying that "article" as a tool in the "argument"; it will backfire.

I love the characterisation of "alpha". In the canine world, it's the male who is the alpha dog; in polite society we're not allowed to use the proper canine word for the alpha female. (I prefer the feline world; it's much less hierarchical. I don't like caste-based societies. Or, perhaps, the world of ducks.)

[Caultron]

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion...

No, really?

[Sinned]

Thank you Carl, Caultron for the clear (?) advice about Fox. Last Tuesday a colleague asked me at work if anything was the matter as I was quiet and not talking much. I replied, "I feel, dejected, demoralised and depressed. Apart from that I feel f*ck*ng fine." She didn't know how to take that at the time. Not feeling much better now. And Carl, I was only joking ( black humour to match my mood at that time ) about showing the article to her - she wouldn't appreciate it. Just going to get up and get on with life and not worry about what I can't change. With statements like that there's nothing I can SAY to alter her perception, all I can do is SHOW her she is wrong. Do you now see why I could never go as far as some of you in wearing dresses, shoes, nail varnish and so on. I feel that I have to at least provide some balance in the female and the male and am very happy to do so.

[renesm1]

I read that article for the purposes of "balance". That's two minutes of my life I won't be getting back!

[denimini]

Dennis, I can understand the hurt but it could have been meant more as a term of endearment like "Oh you are just an old softie" for someone with a sensitive attitude. You should make light of it, regardless. Humour can help when all else fails.

[bobmoore]

...fact or truth (the two are astonishingly different).

I had a grad school professor try to run that by us. It is nonsense, of course.

"Science is the pursuit of facts, not truth. A scientist leaves the ownership of truth to philosophers and theologians. The currency of science is the provable, not the believable.

This is the kind of mumbo-jumbo you'd hear if you were a pupil in thousands of biology, archaeology, and paleontology classrooms. But this kind of thinking is a rejection of the concepts of both truth and fact.

Truth is, by definition, the extent of all truisms. Everything that is true is part of truth. In every trial, the man is either guilty or innocent, never both, never neither. Despite what the fallible court may rule, a truth exists. Hidden from all human knowledge, perhaps, but true nonetheless. The thing that is true is also a fact. Fact, in scientific terms is something that is *observably* true, but not different in substance from truth.

The purpose of this rhetorical slight of hand is to disarm the still under-developed critical thinking abilities of young university students. What better way to supplant the truth that the students know than by convincing them that there is room for two truths in their world view: one under the banner of truth, the other flying the flag of fact.

As the impressionable students make space in their minds for the second truth, they never realize that they are doing so at the expense of the first. After several years of thinking this way, they come to realize that the notion of truth versus fact was nothing more than another way to say that whatever is not proven is false. Thus the conclusion: whatever is believed by faith is false."

I would not try deploying that argument

Good plan.

[beachlion]

When I read the stories of other members, I have not much reason to complain. I don't have to wear skirts in secrecy anymore, I can wear skirts in and around the house and I can go out in a kilt.
There is no Cold War in the house because of my skirts, no negative remarks and the china ware is not flying around.
For my wive it will be a period of adjustment.

[crfriend]

"Science is the pursuit of facts, not truth. A scientist leaves the ownership of truth to philosophers and theologians. The currency of science is the provable, not the believable.

This is the kind of mumbo-jumbo you'd hear if you were a pupil in thousands of biology, archaeology, and paleontology classrooms. But this kind of thinking is a rejection of the concepts of both truth and fact.

"Truth" implies belief, which, on the face of it, needs no proof. E.g. arguments like, "Climate change is not happening." Lots of folks believe the statement even though it is not factual. It may be believable in their local circle, which confers "truth" unto the notion, but that does not make it factually correct.

Truth is, by definition, the extent of all truisms.

The usual question applies: Whose truisms?"

[crfriend]

I don't have to wear skirts in secrecy anymore, I can wear skirts in and around the house and I can go out in a kilt.

I'm in the same boat, and pretty much always have been. In the 26+ years I was in a relationship the only grief I received was when I put together something that really did look hideous or incongruous -- and I learned from those. Once over that hump, I've always worn precisely what I want to, and now that I'm not in a relationship any longer it doesn't much matter.

[dillon]

Well MOH went out about 9:30 and I followed at about 10:00 in a black short skirt, thick black tights, a maroon dress shirt and a maroon hoodie. I had my breakfast, did some shopping and got back about 12:30. Didn't meet her but found out later that they went to the opposite side of the city. Enjoyed every minute of it and even met someone from work. She saw the skirt. I know because I saw her eyes look down then back up again.

Watching a programme at tea time about pirates - what they were really like - and it was mentioned about some of the women who dressed as men and successfully passed off as men. There was also a comment that a lot of male pirates wore very feminine clothing at times. I mentioned this to MOH and her comment was, and I quote, "Well you are a woolly woofter[1] and like the feminine."

So, I guess I now know her true feeling about me. II said nothing as there was nothing to say. I was wearing pale brown camo trousers at the time. I feel sad and moderately hurt, I suppose.

[1] over here, slang for homosexual, particularly a camp one.

Came across this article which is true of MOH and me but not sure what I can do about it apart from show it to her.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016/11/ ... et_1294849

The attitudes and ideas reflected in the article are Gorean, right out of a John Norman novel (Professor John Lange). I'm betting the probability that it was actually written by a woman is pretty low. I'm guessing the fact that the 34th or 35th Gor novel was recently released had a bit to do with it. Some people get obsessed with fantasy, hence the Trump victory.

[mishawakaskirt]

I feel like I have hit a wall again with the wife when it comes to kilts and skirts.
I m at a loss as what to say anymore to her. I have worn my kilt in front of her atleast 5 times.
Every time I sence hostility, and know there is an elephant in the room
Skirt and legal skirt is heard often.
I have tried to show her various websites, she won't even look at them.
No matter what I seem to say will her see my thought processes on this matter
Its amazing to me for a person that wears jeans 90 percent of the time. She can't see the obious, why the one sidedness. . I have tried being polite, I have tried being snarky, and everywhere in the middle.
I thinking of going back underground skirting again, its quiet there, no objections from a wife if she don't know. I think its a loss on bothsides, she complains that I don't share with her, my thoughts, feelings, heart etc. Kilts and skirting is a part of me, something I would love to talk about, in depth, but all I get is a hearty "ICK" I would love to talk to her about it, even Superman had Lois Lane
I hate the cloak and dagger hiding it and all. After 25 years of hiding it, I have come up with plenty of great hiding places, problem is I'm just tired of hiding. ( brief history, she knew I had a thing for skirts, I was upfront with her when we were dating.) I knew then it was an important issue then and would always be important to me.

Thankyou for listening.
Below is a like to a good men in skirts/kilts site. Id show it to my wife if she would look at it.
If you can use it in your situation, put this site to good use.
This one is one of the better ones, I have found
http://www.kiltmen.com/world.htm

[Disaffected.citizen]

OK, I profess absolutely no expertise in this field, or any other for that matter; however the following "old parable/tale" comes to mind. It may not be entirely palatable, but I wonder if it might be "adapted" for use on those naysayers. N.B. Note the disclaimer at the foot of this post.

Extracted from Beliefnet for no other reason than it was the first search result and most convenient place from which to copy....

A poor man lived with his wife and six children in a very small one-room house. They were always getting in each other's way and there was so little space they could hardly breathe!
Finally the man could stand it no more. He talked to his wife and asked her what to do. "Go see the rabbi," she told him, and after arguing a while, he went.

The rabbi greeted him and said, "I see something is troubling you. Whatever it is, you can tell me."

And so the poor man told the rabbi how miserable things were at home with him, his wife, and the six children all eating and living and sleeping in one room. The poor man told the rabbi, "We're even starting to yell and fight with each other. Life couldn't be worse."

The rabbi thought very deeply about the poor man's problem. Then he said, "Do exactly as I tell you and things will get better. Do you promise?"

"I promise," the poor man said.

The rabbi then asked the poor man a strange question. "Do you own any animals?"

"Yes," he said. "I have one cow, one goat, and some chickens."

"Good," the rabbi said. "When you get home, take all the animals into your house to live with you."

The poor man was astonished to hear this advice from the rabbi, but he had promised to do exactly what the rabbi said. So he went home and took all the farm animals into the tiny one-room house.

The next day the poor man ran back to see the rabbi. "What have you done to me, Rabbi?" he cried. "It's awful. I did what you told me and the animals are all over the house! Rabbi, help me!"

The rabbi listened and said calmly, "Now go home and take the chickens back outside."

The poor man did as the rabbi said, but hurried back again the next day. "The chickens are gone, but Rabbi, the goat!" he moaned. "The goat is smashing up all the furniture and eating everything in sight!"

The good rabbi said, "Go home and remove the goat and may God bless you."

So the poor man went home and took the goat outside. But he ran back again to see the rabbi, crying and wailing. "What a nightmare you have brought to my house, Rabbi! With the cow it's like living in a stable! Can human beings live with an animal like this?"

The rabbi said sweetly, "My friend, you are right. May God bless you. Go home now and take the cow out of your house." And the poor man went quickly home and took the cow out of the house.

The next day he came running back to the rabbi again. "O Rabbi," he said with a big smile on his face, "we have such a good life now. The animals are all out of the house. The house is so quiet and we've got room to spare! What a joy!"

So, for those who started out in the belief that the only way to wear a skirt, heels, etc was to present as a woman, and who still have any of the additional paraphernalia, maybe put on your worst (or maybe, best) DRAG[0] and present to your S.O., then reduce and refine until you are just a man in a skirt?

Just a thought/hypothesis. You will need to make a very careful assessment of your particular circumstances as this has serious backfire potential! Good luck if you choose to try this and I certainly couldn't blame you for not trying if you don't.

[0] DRAG - DRessed As a Girl

DISCLAIMER: This author cannot accept any responsibility for the outcome or fallout of any experiment you may choose to conduct as a result of reading this post. At your own peril be it.

[Grok]

http://www.kiltmen.com/world.htm

The old Bravehearts kilt forum, I believe.

[Caultron]

I feel like I have hit a wall again with the wife when it comes to kilts and skirts...

It seems likely at this point that nothing you can say or do is going make your wife a 100% believer any time soon.

Then again, define, "soon." Nothing's permanent if you give it enough time.

So take whatever acceptance your wife gives you, avoid major meltdowns, and keep pushing the envelope but by bit.

If all she'll accept for now is occasionally wearing a kilt around the house, wear it as much as she'll accept and then keep wearing it a little more. If you only have one now, buy another and switch off. This demonstrates a certain commitment on your part. When someone comes to the door while you're kilted, answer it. If she puts up with you being in the yard, do that. If she puts up with your bringing in the mail, do that. Eventually (and this may take several years to achieve) dress in the kilt when you get up and then go someplace where she doesn't know or care about anyone there.

At some point you might try adding a skirt or two to the rotation of kilts but that's another step you'll have to make and then, if it goes over, let sink in for a while.

Keep at it.