MOTIVATIONS

[Seb]

I'll identify as screwdriver, but my roots are in lipstick - big puffy dresses, lace and bows. I've just never had the opportunity to indulge in that, and I don't know that it would suit me anyway.

And as Mouse I remember hating the words smart, handsome and good looking - that always meant being stuck in ichy, uncomfortable clothes you were not allowed to get dirty... While half of the other attending kids got to wear beautiful, flowing, colourful dresses in nice fabrics and all.

[Stu]

I still remember from the early age 5-6, some of the clothes that I was put in and how I hated the feel of them. The word "smart" was also a loaded word, which to me was synonymous with uncomfortable. When you then see around you similar small humans, being allowed a whole different palette of clothes, made from much nicer feeling materials, your brain has to wonder why.

Interesting. This is to you and to Seb.

OK, suppose your parents had offered to take you to a girls' store like Ragazza and said you could choose some clothes from there - whatever you wanted. Most boys (like me) would indignantly decline that and perhaps think their parents had taken leave of their senses. How would you have reacted? Just curious.

[Mouse]

Interesting. This is to you and to Seb.

OK, suppose your parents had offered to take you to a girls' store like Ragazza and said you could choose some clothes from there - whatever you wanted. Most boys (like me) would indignantly decline that and perhaps think their parents had taken leave of their senses. How would you have reacted? Just curious.

This was in the sixties in a very religious household. I think I already knew at an early age that homosexuality, was to the church we attended, sinful. In my simple brain, that was guys liking girly things, so I had already worked out that some things were best kept secret and hidden in side my brain, where it was safe to internally ask questions. I had a great loving childhood and I just thought that I was different and had thoughts and desires that nobody else had in the whole world. Sounds crazy today, but we had no TV, the telephone was at the bottom of the stairs with a dial and the world news came in the form of Radio 4 on the radio and the Daily Telegraph news paper, which as I grew, became a great source of news and pictures at the weekend with the colour supplement. (Back then news papers were B/W as was the TV) When we did get a TV, that two added to my education of the world, but with a religious oversight and spin.

I can't imagine my parents taking me to get girl clothes, can't imagine that even when I try. I do however remember being dressed up in a skirt by my mother for a nativity play, where I was a shepherd. I remember that my long trousers showed below the skirt bit, so I was told to take them off. I then found myself sitting at the front of the church in a skirt, in public along with others! I remember the feeling of a skirt around me and yet, I wasn't in trouble or being laughed at. I didn't much like the acting bit, but the skirt wearing was all good. So my mother did dress me in a skirt and I liked it. She has no idea at the time or even now.

I think where I am now in life, living in a skirt everyday, continually amazes me at how far I have come and how the world has changed for me.

I know many members talk about our rights and I agree with them. However, there is a part of me that still thinks in terms of "I am getting away with bucket loads of ******" and how far can I push the boat out?

Thank you for your post with the three guys. I think that as a full time skirt wearing person, I have elements of all three. I have my comfortable Mr Screwdriver skirts, which are mainly the ones I use for work, but also comfortable skirts I lounge around the house. However, the lounging round the house skirts are too Mr Lipstick to go out in, but Mr Tattoo is taking more and more of those "house only" skirts out into the public world. You then have the earrings, nail polish, hand bags, high heels and hosiery, which is all Mr Lipstick but as an outfit together is all Mr Tattoo "Look at me"

As I said I think I am complicated, but I also think others are just as complicated.

[Myopic Bookworm]

OK, suppose your parents had offered to take you to a girls' store like Ragazza and said you could choose some clothes from there - whatever you wanted. Most boys (like me) would indignantly decline that and perhaps think their parents had taken leave of their senses. How would you have reacted? Just curious.

I think I might have declined, not indignantly, but regretfully: I would have refused to wear girls' clothes because of knowing that I would like it, and not knowing how to deal with that.

This was in the sixties in a very religious household. ... I had already worked out that some things were best kept secret ... Sounds crazy today, but we had no TV, the telephone was at the bottom of the stairs with a dial and the world news came in the form of Radio 4 on the radio and the Daily Telegraph news paper.

That sounds very familiar, although my parents were not extreme in their religiosity, just dedicated evangelical Church of England. (My mother probably had more to say about divorce than homosexuality!)

Thank you for your post with the three guys. I think that as a full time skirt wearing person, I have elements of all three.

As I said I think I am complicated, but I also think others are just as complicated.

Yes. I find tension in being an introvert who has "Mr Tattoo" leanings, as well as an affinity with Mr Lipstick. I wouldn't adopt a skirt *because* it was more practical (I have never found it so), but I would choose my skirts according to practicality; also according to my level of confidence in the reception I might get in any given circumstance. If I could find an off-the shoulder, full-length ball gown that I could wear without looking a right twit, and a suitable occasion to wear it, then I most certainly would.

[Stu]

I think I might have declined, not indignantly, but regretfully: I would have refused to wear girls' clothes because of knowing that I would like it, and not knowing how to deal with that.

Speaking as Mr Screwdriver, I don't understand that. Why "regretfully"? Suppose you find and try a couple of colourful summer dresses, sandals and a matching hat. Your parents and the shop assistant say you look wonderful. You see yourself in the shop mirror and yes, you like what you see. So they pay for the items and leave the shop. You wear the outfits on your holiday. I am really curious to know why that is something you have "to deal with". Can't you just enjoy the lovely clothes? Or would you be worried that people would realise you were a boy and mock you? What's the issue?

[Seb]

OK, suppose your parents had offered to take you to a girls' store like Ragazza and said you could choose some clothes from there - whatever you wanted. Most boys (like me) would indignantly decline that and perhaps think their parents had taken leave of their senses. How would you have reacted? Just curious.

This is a tough one. My sister is just 1 year younger than me so the divide between what clothes we got bought and wore was always very apparent.
Under those preteses I would probably have declined too, knowing it was of limit and I'd better ask for a box of legos instead.
If they said we were going to a fancy wedding (the sort of thing we never went to, so something I knew nothing about) or something and I should pick something I liked, I can see myself having picked up a dress over picking a jacket or vest, even more so if it was a dress only store ofc. I was always very curious, but painfully aware that it was of limit for whatever reason.
I tried on sis dresses from the laundry basket in secret ofc.

[STEVIE]

I have a further and highly personal motivator.
Non-conformist, definitely, but what I want is to be remembered as "The Guy in a Dress" after I depart this benighted rock.
First stage is my painting, ego trip, call it what you will, I don't actually care.
Just have to see how it turns out.
Steve.

[FranTastic444]

@Stu - this is a very thought-provoking post. Thanks for writing it.

Though the screwdriver and tattoo make perfect sense to me, I'm somewhat conflicted by the lipstick category. After mulling this over for some time, I *think* I've landed on a resolution (for me, personally - which is inline with the original description), which is to split this category into lipstick genderpunk (someone who, like me, is intrigued by the fact that gender is a social construct and sees it as a spectrum not a binary where individuals can reposition themselves on that spectrum at will. Someone in this category is most likely not trying to look feminine) and lipstick femboy (someone who most likely goes the whole hog in trying to look like a woman).

If we had a scale of 5 = strong association with description down to 1 = no association with description, I'd rate myself as follows.

• Screwdriver = 2. I do wear one of my sports skorts for exercise and there is a degree of practicality there. But overall, the utility / practicality of a skirt is not a primary driver for wearing one.
• Tattoo = 1. I am just not a "look at me" kind of guy .
• GenderPunk = 5. This is me down to a tee. I bristle at the notion that certain garments or practices (such as using nail varnish or shaving ones armpits, getting a body piercing etc.) are the preserve of one sex. I fart in the general direction of societal norms and religious doctrine that dictates I shouldn't be wearing a skirt or tights or whatever.
• Femboy = 2. This is a tricky one for me. There was a period around puberty where I so wanted to be a girl. But probably not a girl for life - just for a while to check it out. And if my parents had offered to buy me feminine clothes as a 12yo, I'd have run a mile at the prospect (due in part to shame, but mostly for the bullying that wearing such kit would undoubtedly have attracted). Around the time (relatively recently) that I became interested in the concept of gender, I realized two things. 1) I'd look at female pop stars, actors etc. and (through my whole adult life, not just recently) I never imagined bedding them - I imagined *being* them. 2) In my earlier years, I thought that as a male you either never wore female clothing or you were the opposite extreme and strove to dress and look as feminine as possible. The concept of keeping the identity and appearance of a male but wearing some female clothing is a concept that I just didn't contemplate when I was younger.

You may well ask why I didn't go for a zero as the lowest score. Well, allowing zeros messes up this chart that I threw together Please feel free to score yourself on the same scale and I can update the chart if there is any interest.

[Stu]

This is a tough one. My sister is just 1 year younger than me so the divide between what clothes we got bought and wore was always very apparent.
Under those preteses I would probably have declined too, knowing it was of limit and I'd better ask for a box of legos instead.

Fair enough. I do find that a bit sad, though. From what you have said, it would appear that the option regarding the summer dresses would have been a dream come true for you, but your fears and inhibitions would have held you back. I think there is a lesson for us all in that. Thanks for your honesty.

@Stu - this is a very thought-provoking post. Thanks for writing it.
...
You may well ask why I didn't go for a zero as the lowest score. Well, allowing zeros messes up this chart that I threw together Please feel free to score yourself on the same scale and I can update the chart if there is any interest.

You have me perfectly in your compass. For me, it's about comfort and choice - nothing else. Gender doesn't feature. In fact, most feminine styles would be unacceptable to me as I would imagine they are anything but comfortable, practical and robust. Who wants to wear high heels? Or silk stockings? Or a voluminous, floor-length ballgown? That's a BIG no from me.

However, in your case, gender is obviously the major factor. I guess when you were 12 if your parents had offered to treat you to a wardrobe of girls' clothes to wear on holiday, or maybe all the time, you wouldn't have hesitated. There are some parents around these days who would do that, but probably not then.

Stu

[crfriend]

Fair enough. I do find that a bit sad, though. From what you have said, it would appear that the option regarding the summer dresses would have been a dream come true for you, but your fears and inhibitions would have held you back. I think there is a lesson for us all in that. Thanks for your honesty.

I suspect if one digs deeper, most boys have felt that way at some point -- or points -- in time. That captures my experience well. I latched onto the double-standard, detested it, but could do nothing about it because it was so socially entrenched.

My personal presentation also has precisely nothing to do with "gender" (whatever that may be in the modern world), but more to do with style and a personal aesthetic. It's not just about brutal practicality; it needs some panache to it in order to catch my eye -- hence my use of fine fabrics (velvets and satins, especially) and complexity (waistcoats and the like).

[Mouse]

I am enjoying Stu's two current topics and I am intrigued by your chart and the introduction of more characters. So last night this was me, on a tube station in central London around midnight......
I think I have the "look at me" covered. I also have the earrings, nail polish, tongue split, heels, hosiery, corset and septum piercing covered. I am curious where I fit on your chart?
I am also amazed, when I was processing the picture to find a mouse in the shot....

[FranTastic444]

I think I have the "look at me" covered. I also have the earrings, nail polish, tongue split, heels, hosiery, corset and septum piercing covered. I am curious where I fit on your chart?

So, based on your description I would place you at 1 for screwdriver, 5 for tattoo, 5 for genderpunk. No idea where you sit on the femboy axis

Would be interested to hear where you score yourself. It would be good to get some more metrics on the chart to see if there is a common theme.

[Mouse]

So, based on your description I would place you at 1 for screwdriver, 5 for tattoo, 5 for genderpunk. No idea where you sit on the femboy axis

Would be interested to hear where you score yourself. It would be good to get some more metrics on the chart to see if there is a common theme.

I think I am defiantly a 5 for genderpunk. Not sure about the 5 for tattoo. I think the "look at me" is a learned response from wanting to wear skirts and coming to the realisation that to go with what you want, you end up having to deal with the "look at me" and just leaning into it. The fem boy is probably a 3. I really liked the idea of being female, but not the downsides of being female. I now think I have most of the clothing choices a female has without the down sides. I have also loved being father to my children so I am not unhappy being me.
I also love just lounging around in a skirt, so I may be a 1 or 2 on the screwdriver chart.

[FranTastic444]

I think I am defiantly a 5 for genderpunk. Not sure about the 5 for tattoo. I think the "look at me" is a learned response from wanting to wear skirts and coming to the realisation that to go with what you want, you end up having to deal with the "look at me" and just leaning into it. The fem boy is probably a 3. I really liked the idea of being female, but not the downsides of being female. I now think I have most of the clothing choices a female has without the down sides. I have also loved being father to my children so I am not unhappy being me.
I also love just lounging around in a skirt, so I may be a 1 or 2 on the screwdriver chart.

Updated accordingly

[Myopic Bookworm]

I think I might have declined, not indignantly, but regretfully: I would have refused to wear girls' clothes because of knowing that I would like it, and not knowing how to deal with that.

Why "regretfully"? Suppose you find and try a couple of colourful summer dresses, sandals and a matching hat. Your parents and the shop assistant say you look wonderful. You see yourself in the shop mirror and yes, you like what you see. So they pay for the items and leave the shop. You wear the outfits on your holiday. I am really curious to know why that is something you have "to deal with". Can't you just enjoy the lovely clothes? Or would you be worried that people would realise you were a boy and mock you? What's the issue?

If my parents had made the suggestion, and provided that level of positive feedback, then perhaps I would have gone with it on a private family holiday; but my parents (especially my mother) were so respectful of Christian middle class social norms that the prospect is inconceivable. And yes, I would have been concerned about being clocked as a boy in a dress and ridiculed. We are talking about a time when boys and girls were sometimes still expected to enter a school through separate doors. When I was at primary school, even socks were pretty much gendered: boys wore grey socks and girls wore white socks. I envied the girls their games of jacks and French skipping, but the playground was fiercely segregated.

In theory, I might have looked to drama for the dressing up, but I was much too shy and self-conscious. When I did take part in a brief show at the age of about 6 or 7, I was acutely embarassed simply by having to appear with bare feet. At secondary school, I would have been called a "bender" for expressing any interest deemed feminine. That's another underlying issue: I was 14 when I started to have to deal with (and conceal) same-sex attraction in a deeply homophobic environment, and I suppressed any thought of cross-dressing because of its associations. I must have been 24 before I dared to wear the kilt that I had yearned for since I was about 9. I think the national census of 2021 was the first time I was actually confronted with an explicit question about sexuality, and honesty required me to tick the "bisexual" box. I bought my first skirt around the beginning of 2022.