skirtcafe.org

Stu wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 11:51 am So, unless they are dressing up as Aramis in The Three Musketeers, maybe leave the frills and laces for the girls.

How is this any better than “leave skirts and dresses for the girls?”

I love frills and laces on myself and on the ladies. In general, with few exceptions, I believe all humans look better in ornamental clothing (and, not that it matters, but frills and laces on (and ornaments in general) on mens’ clothes has an extensive historical precedent).

There is nothing innately “girly” about such things. There is only the “girliness” western society fallaciously attributes to it (much like it does for a certain unbifurcated garment we all seem to fixate on for some reason )

Stu wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 4:29 pm
There is no such thing as non-binary.

Well that settles that... the gender guru has spoken!

We can all go home now, someone hit the lights on the way out.

There is also no such thing as the color blue.

moonshadow wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2024 2:51 am Well that settles that... the gender guru has spoken!

We can all go home now, someone hit the lights on the way out.

There is also no such thing as the color blue.

Thanks for saying what I was thinking.

moonshadow wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2024 2:51 am
Well that settles that... the gender guru has spoken!

We can all go home now, someone hit the lights on the way out.

There is also no such thing as the color blue.

Well done!

A lady friend of mine is a seamstress. I overheard a conversation she was having with another seamstress. I was not part of the conversation so I did not butt in. They were talking about what they wanted to sew in 2024. My friend indicated she wanted to try designing and sew "gender neutral" clothing. That peaked my interest to continue snooping on the conversation. She gave no details on what she was thinking about. Knowing her current work load I think she will only do one or two items then move on to her regular work. I wonder if skirts will find it way into her idea of gender neutral? I suspect it will follow some design of pants. We already have those. They are called blue jeans.

She knows I don't wear pants but she has only seen me in kilts. Will that influence her idea of gender neutral? Will she ask me my opinion? We will see how it goes as the year progresses.

Pleats wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2024 3:48 pm A lady friend of mine is a seamstress. I overheard a conversation she was having with another seamstress. I was not part of the conversation so I did not butt in. They were talking about what they wanted to sew in 2024. My friend indicated she wanted to try designing and sew "gender neutral" clothing. That peaked my interest to continue snooping on the conversation. She gave no details on what she was thinking about. Knowing her current work load I think she will only do one or two items then move on to her regular work. I wonder if skirts will find it way into her idea of gender neutral? I suspect it will follow some design of pants. We already have those. They are called blue jeans.

She knows I don't wear pants but she has only seen me in kilts. Will that influence her idea of gender neutral? Will she ask me my opinion? We will see how it goes as the year progresses.

Continue - carry-on - do tell us more - waiting for the other shoe to drop - where is Paul Harvey "The Rest of the Story" ?

There are a lot of great points in this discussion, but one I would like to focus on in particular. That being that it would be okay to allow younger boys to wear girls' clothing, but at a certain point in time, they would need to be weaned off the more girly/frilly aspects of the clothing and directed toward items deemed more masculine, including of course, skirts and dresses of plain design if they should so desire. While I understand that the idea is to protect the boy from the scorn of society, I think a better approach would be to teach the child to be fearless in the face of the scorn. One of the hardest things to learn and practice is fearless individualism. It is bigger than clothing choices but definitely includes clothing choices. Telling a developing child that, at some point, they have to learn to be like everybody else when they have been enjoying being themselves can be very damaging to their developing sense of self.
I'll be the first to admit that this is wild-eyed idealism and easier said than done. But that doesn't mean that parents can't unlearn or at least look at some of the habits of their upbringing and be part of raising children who are comfortable with themselves throughout life.

There is a saying I once read - Men will wear anything for sport, women for fashion…

The trouble is that social conditioning is so great, that what’s acceptable to the pack is very controlled, boys now wear sports leggings, when I was younger it would have been laughed out of court.

For the pack mentality for women the desire to conform is actually great, checking what others are wearing out, ensuring they are fitting in is a big part of the tribal behaviour. The scorn and outcasting of a woman trying to hard can be very hard.

Last year I overheard a mum taking about her sons part in a play, and he was excited to be wearing leggings, her comment to the other mum was that he would look silly because he was a boy (probably he was around 7yrs old) But I know that boys at that school wear them for sport in the winter..

Modoc wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2024 5:03 pm There are a lot of great points in this discussion, but one I would like to focus on in particular. That being that it would be okay to allow younger boys to wear girls' clothing, but at a certain point in time, they would need to be weaned off the more girly/frilly aspects of the clothing and directed toward items deemed more masculine, including of course, skirts and dresses of plain design if they should so desire. While I understand that the idea is to protect the boy from the scorn of society, I think a better approach would be to teach the child to be fearless in the face of the scorn. One of the hardest things to learn and practice is fearless individualism. It is bigger than clothing choices but definitely includes clothing choices. Telling a developing child that, at some point, they have to learn to be like everybody else when they have been enjoying being themselves can be very damaging to their developing sense of self.

This is tantamount to breeching from the 16th century, all the way to the very early 20th century. I don't think I need to explain why I prefer the alternative in your very same post — that children should embrace their own individuality in the face of mockery from simpletons whose opinions are worthless and ignorant, but we should note that some kids simply are more sensitive to scorn than others, and we are talking about children, here. Young minds tend to take what's said to them to heart — so much so, that it can have a profound impact on their psyche growing up.

I'll be the first to admit that this is wild-eyed idealism and easier said than done. But that doesn't mean that parents can't unlearn or at least look at some of the habits of their upbringing and be part of raising children who are comfortable with themselves throughout life.

This is what angers me about the world and the supposedly "mature" majority. Too many people don't want to stop and be introspective about their own childhood, and prefer to just impose their own habits and beliefs on to children without considering if these things are even worth inheriting in the first place. I hate adults, in spite of me being one.

Dave wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2024 5:40 pm Last year I overheard a mum taking about her sons part in a play, and he was excited to be wearing leggings; her comment to the other mum was that he would look silly because he was a boy (probably he was around 7yrs old) But I know that boys at that school wear them for sport in the winter...

Someone probably should've told Mum #1 that men and boys have a history of wearing tights — a very similar type of leg wear, yet not the same as leggings, and aptly call her out for making such a "silly" statement. Absurd that boys would look "silly" in something just because girls wear it more often.

Modoc wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2024 5:03 pm There are a lot of great points in this discussion, but one I would like to focus on in particular. That being that it would be okay to allow younger boys to wear girls' clothing, but at a certain point in time, they would need to be weaned off the more girly/frilly aspects of the clothing and directed toward items deemed more masculine, including of course, skirts and dresses of plain design if they should so desire. While I understand that the idea is to protect the boy from the scorn of society, [...snip...]

Maybe "society" will direct its scorn, maybe it won't. But there is no reason whatever for anyone to participate in that. "Society" is never an excuse to be rude or mean to people.

TSH wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2024 7:04 pm

I'll be the first to admit that this is wild-eyed idealism and easier said than done. But that doesn't mean that parents can't unlearn or at least look at some of the habits of their upbringing and be part of raising children who are comfortable with themselves throughout life.

This is what angers me about the world and the supposedly "mature" majority. Too many people don't want to stop and be introspective about their own childhood, and prefer to just impose their own habits and beliefs on to children without considering if these things are even worth inheriting in the first place. I hate adults, in spite of me being one.

Sigh. This all hurts. Some of my parent's attitudes boil down to this. I don't hate adults, but wish there was some way to open their eyes.

Coder wrote: ↑Sat Jan 20, 2024 12:56 am I don't hate adults, but wish there was some way to open their eyes.

Coder, I get you, and I also believe that many kids expand and grow in spite of parental attitude, possibly even to thwart it.
That said, I know perfectly well that if my father had caught me in a skirt, he'd have thrashed me.
He wasn't a bad man, he was just a product of the time, brainwashed to believe that he'd actually have been saving me from myself.
Not my mortal soul, but pretty damn close.
Sixty years on, it isn't fashion that is failing boys in skirts it's bloody-minded blinkered people whether they are parents or not.
Sadly, I'd not rule out thrashings and perhaps worse either.
Steve.

Retracted

In the world wide population there is apparently 1.7% born as intersex. Intersex takes many forms but the resulting person has a difficult time growing up in a world where many people don't understand the condition or flat out refuse to believe it exists.

Mouse wrote: ↑Sat Jan 20, 2024 8:53 am In the world wide population there is apparently 1.7% born as intersex. Intersex takes many forms but the resulting person has a difficult time growing up in a world where many people don't understand the condition or flat out refuse to believe it exists.

That's the word I was looking for last night when I was writing my point. You wouldn't tell a person whose intersex they don't exist so why is he stating non-binary people don't?