skirtcafe.org

SkirtsDad wrote: ↑Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:55 am Whilst I'm pretty much on the same page as Stevie, I note that some conversation has been generated around construct and ideas of gender. On that note, I came across this clip relating to masculinity that I hope some of you might find interesting: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PfHo9oCP-2g

Thank You - very enlightening !

And I hope you are staying cool in more ways than one -
Of course your clothing selection always is cool.

SkirtsDad wrote: ↑Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:55 am I came across this clip relating to masculinity that I hope some of you might find interesting.

Yes, interesting.

More pop-sci fluff. It completely misses the mark of, "What if it's just a style choice?"

The main problem is that for the past 40 years men have been being devalued and it's gotten now to the point where they're looked down on. Women now occupy every last bit of space in the male ecosystem leaving nothing for men. Feminism now isn't about equality, it's about dominion.

In short, there's nothing left for us to lose. We need to find a different space -- and one that's now wide open is the one that women departed when they took over the male space.

crfriend wrote: ↑Wed Jul 20, 2022 5:39 pm
In short, there's nothing left for us to lose. We need to find a different space -- and one that's now wide open is the one that women departed when they took over the male space.

Women did not depart from any space except being homemakers. Why don’t we just emulate women? Why is it so important to find our own space? Why do we need this differentiation? We are all human. Women are doing it right especially in America where the majority of college students and graduates are women.

Jamie is right. This is a conversation that needs to place. Clothes have no gender, but are associated with a gender. To change the views of the majority, it needs to become mainstream. Companies have tried and failed. Anyone remember the H&M men’s skirt from around 2003?

crfriend wrote: ↑Wed Jul 20, 2022 5:39 pm
The main problem is that for the past 40 years men have been being devalued and it's gotten now to the point where they're looked down on.

Seriously? C’mon, those kind of views are well outdated and won’t do the idea that pulling on a skirt is simply a fashion choice. What exactly to men need to claim back?

Even the language used on the main part of the site is outdated and won’t attract more forward thinking young people.

Andy_G wrote: ↑Wed Jul 20, 2022 8:52 pm Jamie is right. This is a conversation that needs to [missing word?] place. Clothes have no gender, but are associated with a gender. To change the views of the majority, it needs to become mainstream. Companies have tried and failed. Anyone remember the H&M men’s skirt from around 2003?

Yes, I recall it, and it failed for the usual reason: circular-logic. Why did it fail? Well, men don't wear skirts? Why not? "Because men don't wear skirts." See the point? That's why such emphasis is placed on getting out there and "flying the flag" that men can -- and do -- wear skirts.

crfriend wrote: ↑Wed Jul 20, 2022 5:39 pm The main problem is that for the past 40 years men have been being devalued and it's gotten now to the point where they're looked down on.

Seriously? C’mon, those kind of views are well outdated and won’t do the idea that pulling on a skirt is simply a fashion choice. What exactly to men need to claim back?

Even the language used on the main part of the site is outdated and won’t attract more forward thinking young people.

Bear in mind that this is a multi-generational community, and some of the members are young enough to be the grand-children of other members. The elders see things through a time-lens that's necessarily different from the younger members' lens, and thus draw different conclusions.

And, yes, sometimes donning a skirt is a fashion choice. Why would it not be? Why would it of necessity indicate a warped sense of an individual's "masculinity" (whatever the definition of that is in this particular moment of time)?

One of the points that I’m attempting to make is that if you wear a skirt you will be labeled as feminine. The feminine label is not a bad thing. If we were more feminine as a society we would have almost no violent crime and certainly less wars. Even during the times when I am wearing blue jeans and a T-Shirt I am called ma’am. It does not offend me to be called ma’am and I always respond graciously. Being labeled feminine is not bad and in my opinion is a step-up for aforementioned reasons.

"What feminine items do you wear?"

My answer can best be summed up by stating what I don't wear,
SHOES

I have yet to find an aircraft carrier sized women's shoe.

Granted, I've had some side effects from medications, which now
requires me to wear some 'unmentionables' not normally worn by men.
But, at 71, I strive forward, and go with the flow of my life. The "items"
are not noticeable as I wear loose fitting shirts (with squared off hem)
over my dresses, and shirts (with tails) that I tuck into my skirts.

Each person must walk the path given to them in life.
Enjoy the walk

Uncle Al

jamie001 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 3:56 am One of the points that I’m attempting to make is that if you wear a skirt you will be labeled as feminine.

To be honest, I think it really depends on the style of skirt. And actually, I think it's more to do with fabrics and colours. If you wear a straight black skirt people aren't going to think "feminine". Wear a long flowy skirt with some pattern/colour and ding! ding! ding!

Which is a pity really. However, these days even men are getting t-shirts with bold colours and patterns, it just hasn't really happened for the bottom half yet (though it's getting there).

Note: it's really hard to generalise across the world. Different places are at quite different stages.

jamie001 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 3:56 am The feminine label is not a bad thing.

Agreed.

rode_kater wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 7:49 am these days even men are getting t-shirts with bold colours and patterns, it just hasn't really happened for the bottom half yet (though it's getting there).

I bought my first patterned skirt, but I haven't worn it out of the house yet.

crfriend wrote: ↑Wed Jul 20, 2022 5:39 pm More pop-sci fluff. It completely misses the mark of, "What if it's just a style choice?"

The main problem is that for the past 40 years men have been being devalued and it's gotten now to the point where they're looked down on. Women now occupy every last bit of space in the male ecosystem leaving nothing for men. Feminism now isn't about equality, it's about dominion.

In short, there's nothing left for us to lose. We need to find a different space -- and one that's now wide open is the one that women departed when they took over the male space.

The person seemed to contradict themselves quite a bit. He said," Just because I am hyper-masculine, does not mean that I support it."
So if I understand correctly, you condemned what you did not like and then decided to adopt the behavior, but you do not support it. Not confusing at all.

Freedomforall wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 6:37 pm The person seemed to contradict themselves quite a bit. He said," Just because I am hyper-masculine, does not mean that I support it."
So if I understand correctly, you condemned what you did not like and then decided to adopt the behavior, but you do not support it. Not confusing at all.

I didn't hear that at all. He said he is transmasculine, not hypermasculine; explicitly distances himself from homophobia, misogyny, [rad-fem hate-speech redacted], and hypermasculinity (5:23); and (maybe this is the bit you misinterpreted) that just because he expresses himself as masculine (i.e. identifies as a man) that doesn't mean that he is hypermasculine (6:43) or supports the things that go with it. In fact, as a female-born man, he has some of the same issues with masculinity and its conflation with hypermasculinity as do us male-born non-alpha males who hate being stereotyped as hairy muscular people who are into sport, cars, beer, and exaggerated heterosexuality.

Myopic Bookworm wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 10:49 pm

Freedomforall wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 6:37 pm The person seemed to contradict themselves quite a bit. He said," Just because I am hyper-masculine, does not mean that I support it."
So if I understand correctly, you condemned what you did not like and then decided to adopt the behavior, but you do not support it. Not confusing at all.

I didn't hear that at all. He said he is transmasculine, not hypermasculine; explicitly distances himself from homophobia, misogyny, [rad-fem hate-speech redacted], and hypermasculinity (5:23); and (maybe this is the bit you misinterpreted) that just because he expresses himself as masculine (i.e. identifies as a man) that doesn't mean that he is hypermasculine (6:43) or supports the things that go with it. In fact, as a female-born man, he has some of the same issues with masculinity and its conflation with hypermasculinity as do us male-born non-alpha males who hate being stereotyped as hairy muscular people who are into sport, cars, beer, and exaggerated heterosexuality.

It is towards the end of the video. My wife and I both heard it and I played it back to make sure I heard correctly. We both looked at each other and thought how contradictory it was.

Myopic Bookworm wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 7:51 am I bought my first patterned skirt, but I haven't worn it out of the house yet.

Emmm, that does fit the description of a kilt.
However, I presume you mean a rather different type of pattern.
Same advice as normal, just give it a go and if it makes you uncomfortable, ditch it.
In terms of likely reaction from the world and their dog, most likely, no more than usual.
Have fun with it is the main thing and enjoy.
Steve.

STEVIE wrote: ↑Fri Jul 22, 2022 5:10 am

Myopic Bookworm wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 7:51 am I bought my first patterned skirt, but I haven't worn it out of the house yet.

Emmm, that does fit the description of a kilt.
However, I presume you mean a rather different type of pattern.
Same advice as normal, just give it a go and if it makes you uncomfortable, ditch it.
In terms of likely reaction from the world and their dog, most likely, no more than usual.
Have fun with it is the main thing and enjoy.
Steve.

I was going to say that too!