skirtcafe.org

To Old Salt’s point: If I was the father in this case, I would flip my lid. If I was the mother I would thank God my kid’s teacher had the humanity and compassion to let my kid be who they are.
The teacher didn’t force Luna to do anything; she offered the poor kid the opportunity to freely make a choice.
Some times we have to recognize that as part of the charge we give our teachers; nurturing kids’ individuality in a safe environment.
As to the firing a teacher for having helped a kid go against a parent’s wishes, get real, if we applied that standard universally there wouldn’t be any teachers left! And you know it.
You have kids; did any of them wind up exactly how you wanted them to? Did you wind up exactly ad your parents wanted you to? I’m sure that they were proud of your military and business careers. But your divorces? Were they part of their plan for you? Were they alive today would they say, “That’s our Danny Boy! He changed his wardrobe preference right on schedule at about 70?”

I am not taking any exception to your comments but Please explain how my children ended up or my personal life ended has to do with a teacher who maybe allots 15 minutes a day to my child interfering with my choices for my child .

The teacher apparently was aware of the situation and conflicts that existed and she became judge and jury making her own decision as to the what the outcome of the situation should be

Reverse the situation if you were the mother and you sent your child to school in a dress and he came home in a pair of pants ... you would hang the teacher

If the child was diabetic and she gave him candy than said I didn't force him to eat it would you have the same opinion

The teacher wasn’t judge or jury. In fact, she brought in both boy’s and girl’s clothes so Luna could choose.

Suppose that teacher had another student who was constantly being put down and belittled by her mother like the child was a Marine Corps recruit because the mother thought that was the way to motivate a child. And because the teacher knows such abuse will kill a child’s spirit the teacher takes extra pains to be kind, supportive and genuinely affirming would you say that teacher was out of line for bucking the girl’s parent or would you say the teacher was doing their job?

Before you dismiss that scenario out of hand, you’d be amazed at what teachers learn out about their students. They can do so because they spend all day with their students; not just however many hours in the school day divided by the number of students.

My point about you and your kids and your parents is that every parent has hopes, dreams and plans for their kids and those hopes, dreams and plans rarely, if ever play out the way Mom and Dad saw them, but parents nevertheless say they’ve proud of their grown kids. As they should.

In poor Luna’s case, her parents are dreaming at cross purposes.

Pdxfashionpioneer wrote: ↑Sat Jan 04, 2020 2:58 pm In fact, she brought in both boy’s and girl’s clothes so Luna could choose.

And that reinforces the very point I made to you some days ago when I said it would be hugely helpful if there were no such thing as "boys' clothes" and "girls' clothes". You want to wear pants and a shirt? Fine. You want to wear a dress? Fine. Both sexes can wear whichever they prefer - it's simply not an issue.

There are two possible positions one can take on this:

1. Clothes are inherently gendered; they are either masculine or feminine. People can, and should, use clothing to express their gender and not trespass on clothing which contradicts their gender.

2. Clothes are, or should be, discrete from gender. They are simply pieces of cloth that cover the body. Either sex should be free to wear what they like without their choice being associated with their gender or sexuality.

These positions are in conflict - irreconcilable. If 1. applies, then males who wish to be perceived as entirely masculine must never wear a skirt - or anything other than trousers. A boy who goes to school in a skirt is expressing the fact that he is trans, or at least doesn't identify as a boy. If 2. applies, then boys and girls can freely choose to wear trousers or skirts for school according to their own preference and comfort, and they are not making any statement about their gender identity.

I fit firmly into the Number 2 camp. I thought everyone else on here did, too.

In that case maybe the teaches should try to help . In this case you have 2 parents with different opinions . She took the mothers side. And you have no proof as to which parent was the abusive one.

And as far as me making my choice I did it at 70 that's 70

not 7 or younger big difference

Rereading your post the teacher anticipated the fathers moves I think she is a little to deeply involved in the situation and is sympathetic to the mothers side.
and show me the article where it says she brought in both boy and girls clothing

Stu wrote: ↑Sat Jan 04, 2020 7:42 pm

Pdxfashionpioneer wrote: ↑Sat Jan 04, 2020 2:58 pm In fact, she brought in both boy’s and girl’s clothes so Luna could choose.

And that reinforces the very point I made to you some days ago when I said it would be hugely helpful if there were no such thing as "boys' clothes" and "girls' clothes". You want to wear pants and a shirt? Fine. You want to wear a dress? Fine. Both sexes can wear whichever they prefer - it's simply not an issue.

There are two possible positions one can take on this:

1. Clothes are inherently gendered; they are either masculine or feminine. People can, and should, use clothing to express their gender and not trespass on clothing which contradicts their gender.

2. Clothes are, or should be, discrete from gender. They are simply pieces of cloth that cover the body. Either sex should be free to wear what they like without their choice being associated with their gender or sexuality.

These positions are in conflict - irreconcilable. If 1. applies, then males who wish to be perceived as entirely masculine must never wear a skirt - or anything other than trousers. A boy who goes to school in a skirt is expressing the fact that he is trans, or at least doesn't identify as a boy. If 2. applies, then boys and girls can freely choose to wear trousers or skirts for school according to their own preference and comfort, and they are not making any statement about their gender identity.

I fit firmly into the Number 2 camp. I thought everyone else on here did, too.

I dislike both positions and don't see them as being the only 2 positions one "can" take. (Have you noticed how many times the word "can" comes up?) I am not in either camp.

The problem is turning observations about masculinity, femininity, and sexuality into imperatives.

The problem is not whether or not there is anything substantial to the categories, but whether or not we should enforce those categories.

Sometimes, often, we seek to preclude enforcement by denying the substantiality of the reasons for it. But what if some of the reasons are not easily denied? For example, femininity is more than merely randomly-chosen social conventions. It derives from observing females in aggregate over large numbers and large amounts of time. It is substantial. Even so, what possible reasons are there to turn the substantial observed features of femininity into either obligations or restrictions on individuals, and under what conditions, if any?

My camp, call it Camp 3, is to say that without good reasons, no enforcement of sex-related norms on individuals should happen. I would also say that this should be enshrined as a default position; a right. From Camp 3 all we have to discuss is what constitutes good reasons.

Stu wrote: ↑Sat Jan 04, 2020 7:42 pm

Pdxfashionpioneer wrote: ↑Sat Jan 04, 2020 2:58 pm In fact, she brought in both boy’s and girl’s clothes so Luna could choose.

And that reinforces the very point I made to you some days ago when I said it would be hugely helpful if there were no such thing as "boys' clothes" and "girls' clothes". You want to wear pants and a shirt? Fine. You want to wear a dress? Fine. Both sexes can wear whichever they prefer - it's simply not an issue.

Which would be fine, if it were universally believed and followed. We keep getting closer on the last point, but gender and identifying behavior by gender, especially dress, has always been with us and probably always will.

There are two possible positions one can take on this:

1. Clothes are inherently gendered; they are either masculine or feminine. People can, and should, use clothing to express their gender and not trespass on clothing which contradicts their gender.

2. Clothes are, or should be, discrete from gender. They are simply pieces of cloth that cover the body. Either sex should be free to wear what they like without their choice being associated with their gender or sexuality.

These positions are in conflict - irreconcilable.

In my experience, the real world isn’t digital – 0 & 1, black & white, yes & no – it’s analog. We keep getting better at modelling the real world by digital means, but reality remains stubbornly analog. Between any duality you want to hypothesize, there’s a whole analog rainbow of possibilities in between.

Thank God! If there wasn’t viable space between the opposite poles of every dispute, we couldn’t resolve them for lack of common ground. If we couldn’t peacefully resolve any of our conflicts, our species would have annihilated itself AGES ago.

I fit firmly into the Number 2 camp. I thought everyone else on here did, too.

We have so much diversity in this Café, even if you were to ask the time, you’d get answers including nearly every hour on the clock. You probably wouldn’t even get agreement on the date or day of the week!

Besides, even all of us believing that doesn’t necessarily convince the rest of the world.

oldsalt1 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:51 pm In that case maybe the teachers should try to help. In this case you have 2 parents with different opinions.

We all know this was a lot more consequential than your typical, simple difference of opinion.

She took the mother’s side. And you have no proof as to which parent was the abusive one … Rereading your post, the teacher anticipated the fathers moves I think she is a little too deeply involved in the situation and is sympathetic to the mother’s side.

All of the expert opinion supported her and Luna’s contention that the child should be considered to be a girl. The father had no such evidence going for him.

I feel the teacher’s response was appropriate because in my opinion the father is abusing Luna and that the teacher offered an appropriate option without any pressure. That said, there is always room for reasonable people to disagree.

And as far as me making my choice, I did it at 70. That's 70, not 7 or younger; big difference.

I was trying to make the point that all of us grow up to be someone quite different from the person our parents hoped and dreamed we’d grow up to be. As do our own kids. And in fact, all kids from the beginning until the end of time have and will.

All of us are entitled to be ourselves, including 4-year-olds.

When you were 7, I expect you were very sure you were a boy and had been sure for quite a while. I’d even be willing to bet that you had an itch that wouldn’t go away to wear girls’ clothes. I know I did. But if someone told you the only way you could wear dresses would be to let a group of doctors turn you into a girl, you’d have told them to stick it.

and show me the article where it says she brought in both boy and girl’s clothing

I wish I could, but I don’t have it. It was in article I saw on my Apple daily news feed. I believe it was from Slate. So, I guess it wouldn’t matter anyway because you would just dismiss the article as the product of an unreliable, left-wing rag.

Daryl wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:02 am
I dislike both positions and don't see them as being the only 2 positions one "can" take. (Have you noticed how many times the word "can" comes up?) I am not in either camp.

The problem is turning observations about masculinity, femininity, and sexuality into imperatives.

The problem is not whether or not there is anything substantial to the categories, but whether or not we should enforce those categories.

Sometimes, often, we seek to preclude enforcement by denying the substantiality of the reasons for it. But what if some of the reasons are not easily denied? For example, femininity is more than merely randomly-chosen social conventions. It derives from observing females in aggregate over large numbers and large amounts of time. It is substantial. Even so, what possible reasons are there to turn the substantial observed features of femininity into either obligations or restrictions on individuals, and under what conditions, if any?

My camp, call it Camp 3, is to say that without good reasons, no enforcement of sex-related norms on individuals should happen. I would also say that this should be enshrined as a default position; a right. From Camp 3 all we have to discuss is what constitutes good reasons.

Maybe so, but we don’t live in your version of Utopia and we all need to deal with the world as it is. Gender has been a social norm since the beginning of time. And social norms are enforced.


To summarize, I believe the mother in this case because:
• The expert testimony supports her position.
• The husband has no scientific evidence supporting his position.
• There is no evidence that the mother has an ulterior motive for making her claims.
• The father now has over 400,000 reasons for making the claims he does.
• The mother’s position tracks with what I have come to understand about sex, sexual orientation, gender identity and gender expression.
• My understanding of these issues is based on the latest scientific evidence about these subjects.
• And the science supports what I have learned from own experience and have learned from other people on the LGBTQ+ spectrum.
• I say “other people on the LGBTQ+ spectrum” because I identify as a gender-fluid, heterosexual male.
So that’s why I believe the mother and her daughter, Luna.

I also believe this thread is beginning to feel like an overlong game of beach volleyball that started out as a friendly pastime, so no kept score and the agreement for ending it was when everyone was tired of it, but somewhere along the line it got serious and contentious so everyone’s frustrated instead of having fun. I’m not seeing any new information and we’re beginning to repeat ourselves.

I want to make a few suggestions:
1. If anyone has something to say about this case that is based on fact, rather than just speculation, wishful thinking or philosophizing that hasn’t been said already, speak now or forever hold your peace.
2. Once everyone’s had their final say, we agree to disagree on this issue.
3. Those of you who have such a hard time believing the child ask yourself why, when there is so much science to support contentions such as his, you prefer to believe the opposite, despite the lack of credible, contrary evidence.
4. Can we please watch our verbiage and drop such expressions as “the trans agenda?”

For the record, there isn’t one that I know of, except to be accepted as the people they are. Isn’t that an “agenda” we can all support?

I think we are agreeing to disagree that doesn 't mean the discussion has to end.

I wish that you would keep your reply's to a reasonable length so the points of contention can be discussed with out having to rely on note taking.

First off I agree with your conclusion on Daryl we don't live in a utopia

I agree that we should be able to be ourselves. at any age but that choice should be what we chose to be not what a wacked out parent, either side chooses for us

on the clothing you say she brought in extra clothing. you say we should verify our sources. did you or did you take one that agrees with your position

and on that clothing choice was he naked at the time . Most likely not than why would he go thru the trouble of changing from one pair of pants to another

I would like to re ask your final question for those who believe that Luna is making his own decisions do you sincerely believe in this case he is making it on his own volition with out ANY outside influence

Dan(Oldsalt1),

Google search Jazz Jennings. She was 5 when she "came out" that she was a girl, not a boy.
Her story made national news & Barbara Walters interviewed her when she was around 6 years old.
She has become a beautiful, outspoken woman for Trans Rights. She has delayed her entry into
Harvard University as she wants some "time off".

So, can we all "get along" and understand that a person, of any age, CAN determine what their
gender is, or is not. Let's stop putting "OUR" prejudices of gender on other people.
Let them be themselves, not what we want them to be.

Uncle Al

Uncle Al wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:45 am Google search Jazz Jennings. She was 5 when she "came out" that she was a girl, not a boy.
Her story made national news & Barbara Walters interviewed her when she was around 6 years old.
She has become a beautiful, outspoken woman for Trans Rights. She has delayed her entry into
Harvard University as she wants some "time off".

Jazz Jennings was born in October 2000, making her 19 years old as of now. Thus, this transition happened around 2006 or so.

Frankly, that was back when "transgender" wasn't dominating news stories as it is today. This was before Caitlyn Jenner.

Then along comes the supreme court decision on homosexual marriage, later Jenner's transition and suddenly individual bodies are suddenly the public business of the world at large.

The good news is thanks to this transgender awareness, it has helped thousands upon thousands reconcile their own gender identities and has led many to the help they needed along the way, support groups, increased awareness, etc.

The bad news is, like everything else, those against the transgender lifestyle are pushing back harder than ever, as if it's any of their business to begin with.

Now I'm not calling out anyone on this site, I'm just speaking in general.

Uncle Al wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:45 am Dan(Oldsalt1),


So, can we all "get along" and understand that a person, of any age, CAN determine what their
gender is, or is not. Let's stop putting "OUR" prejudices of gender on other people.
Let them be themselves, not what we want them to be.

Uncle Al

I thought this was a forum for discussion but according to you the only way we can "Get Along" is to not have a different opinion

and how did you determine that my comments on the discussion were based on " OUR 'you mean my prejudices .

I don't have any prejudices on gender.

my entire point on this discussion was is it the child making the decision or the parent making it for the child

moonshadow wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:47 amJazz Jennings was born in October 2000, making her 19 years old as of now. Thus, this transition happened around 2006 or so.

One of the things I find troubling is that all we hear of in the "world of transition" is success stories -- and that's statistically impossible. There have got to be some failures -- transitions that have gone horribly wrong for one reason or other. In fact, failures are probably more likely than successes because of all the different ways that things can go wrong where all the stars won't (or can't) align.

Without case histories of both success and failure it is impossible to draw any reasonable conclusions.

crfriend wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:41 pm One of the things I find troubling is that all we hear of in the "world of transition" is success stories -- and that's statistically impossible. There have got to be some failures -- transitions that have gone horribly wrong for one reason or other.

There was a lot of media attention about 'regretters' in the U.K. a few months ago, most of it was based on false data fed to the press by pressure groups.  This article calculates the number of true 'failures' as 0.4%, with the rest being due to social pressure.

A lot of transgender people cringe at the blaze of publicity given to the 'success' stories, which tend to reinforce the mistaken belief that being transgender is somehow a choice; that transition is the key to tranforming a rotten life into utopia and stardom.  If you are transgender, there are a lot of people who consider it their business to make your life as rotten as they possibly can, by pressuring you to conform with their idea of 'normal'; a 'successful' transition is one that allows you to slip under their radar and lead a normal life - that is as near to utopia as most transgender people are likely to get.

To return to the topic in the header: based on what I have read and without access to any privileged information, it looks to me as though the child is under immense pressure from the father to conform to his idea of being a boy; but when given an unpressured choice by the mother and by a teacher, the child prefers to be a girl.  On balance, there are far more examples of transgender children being browbeaten into conformity than there are of cisgender children being convinced they are trans by a rogue parent.

crfriend wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:41 pm

moonshadow wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:47 amJazz Jennings was born in October 2000, making her 19 years old as of now. Thus, this transition happened around 2006 or so.

One of the things I find troubling is that all we hear of in the "world of transition" is success stories -- and that's statistically impossible. There have got to be some failures -- transitions that have gone horribly wrong for one reason or other. In fact, failures are probably more likely than successes because of all the different ways that things can go wrong where all the stars won't (or can't) align.

Without case histories of both success and failure it is impossible to draw any reasonable conclusions.

I'm certain there are failures. I've read a few of the stories, the anti-trans lobby waste no time in seeing to it they are well published.

But really, isn't failure a part of life? Nobody is 100% successful in every endeavor.

Also, success/failure in trans life is likely also on a "spectrum". There are probably very few outright failures or successes in trans life. Often times as the endeavor progresses compromises must be made and accepted.

Life is for exploring, both the world, and ourselves. It contributes greatly to our humanity. Sometimes when we explore we do indeed take the wrong path, but that doesn't mean we should cease the search and the process of self exploration.

More the better if the world would stay out of our way. Jazz is, in fact an exception. Most trans people aren't celebrated like she is.

It would seem that I am the only one on the opposite side of this issue. but here goes again

First the teacher had no business sticking her nose into the act. She was in direct conflict with the wishes of the child's parent. You may not agree but if I was her administrator I would have fired her.

And you mentioned a non-pressured choice by the mother

Do you think that continually telling him it was ok to be a girl providing girls clothing and than changing his name was not pressure on the part of the mother

Tell me when you were growing up did your mother beat you over the head with everything she wanted or at times did she make gentle suggestions and you did things her way because you wanted to please her.

I have a great deal of compassion for this child he or she has a very tough road ahead .