Edinburgh school asks boys to wear skirts on 4 November

[new2skirts]

This article appeared in the Daily Mail...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ality.html

But is aimed at very young children who won't understand

[Stu]

This made me angry!

Think about it. Boys, the gender that is falling behind, should do this for girls, the gender that is actually ahead in education? Also, girls have a genuine choice 365 days a year while a taboo says boys can't enjoy wearing them because ... reasons... except, apparently, for one day a year when they can do so, but then only to show solidarity with the privileged gender that can wear them.

[rode_kater]

Think about it. Boys, the gender that is falling behind, should do this for girls, the gender that is actually ahead in education? Also, girls have a genuine choice 365 days a year while a taboo says boys can't enjoy wearing them because ... reasons... except, apparently, for one day a year when they can do so, but then only to show solidarity with the privileged gender that can wear them.

I'm confused. Where does it say it is for the girls? I read is as normalising skirt wearing for boys, so it's for the boys surely?

The "as young as three" phrasing is designed to rile people up. Par for the course for the Daily Mail.

It says the pupils came up with the idea themselves. I'm not sure what the school should have done, tell them no? That would have been completely unproductive I think. I think people should just stop paying attention to social media, life is much calmer that way.

[Stu]

The Edinburgh school move is said to be in response to the same action in Spain earlier this year. A lad called Mikel was expelled and referred to psychologists after wearing a skirt to a school in Bilbao, explaining that he had "wanted to show support for feminism".

Feminism is a political movement - and primary schools should avoid politics.

[Bodycon]

Another example of a nice idea being turned into an issue due to misunderstanding.

Some boys decided try and show support for Gender Equality and thought wearing skirts would be a good method. As a concept that is fine, though in reality by dressing in skirts to do this they are reinforcing the concept that a skirt is female clothing, which is a mistake, but given their age, understandable.

The issue is when it gets extrapolated from P6 (10-11 year old) down to younger children with less of a notion on what Gender or even Equality is and are unlikely to grasp that by wearing a skirt for a day. I can understand a parents concern with just dressing up a child who doesn't understand.

As usual a lack of clarity and communication are at fault The school should have allowed a small number to take part to see what happened then planned an event (I would do it on the basis of gender acceptance and respect, so it works both (all) ways) the following year after fully discussing with parents.

International Men's day is 19th of November, which would be a good day to publicly wear a skirt and send the message that men are men regardless of clothing.

Skirt Day is 10th March, also a good opportunity for a skirt to be worn as clothing and not just female clothing.

[rode_kater]

As usual a lack of clarity and communication are at fault

In Dutch we have portmanteau for this: crommunicatie. It begins sounding like the word "krom" meaning 'bent". Hence it used when communications go off the rails, like it appears to be the case here. Perhaps it was formulated too forcefully rather than "hey, the students had this great idea".

International Men's day is 19th of November, which would be a good day to publicly wear a skirt and send the message that men are men regardless of clothing.

Skirt Day is 10th March, also a good opportunity for a skirt to be worn as clothing and not just female clothing.

Both work for me

[Coder]

The Edinburgh school move is said to be in response to the same action in Spain earlier this year. A lad called Mikel was expelled and referred to psychologists after wearing a skirt to a school in Bilbao, explaining that he had "wanted to show support for feminism".

If I were that age TODAY, I'd probably use the same excuse to wear a skirt without getting flack from people. I'm not saying that's why he claimed it as so, but with threat of expulsion/psychologist counseling I'd find the most woke (or nearly woke) excuse so everyone else looked like a bigot. Today? Well, I'm an adult and only answer to myself so I'm trying to get comfortable with "because I want to" but society (a weak scapegoat) might find fault with my choices.

[Stu]

though in reality by dressing in skirts to do this they are reinforcing the concept that a skirt is female clothing, which is a mistake,

Exactly!!!

[moonshadow]

Feminism is a political movement - and primary schools should avoid politics.

+1

Man sometimes it just makes me miss the innocence of childhood. When I was in primary school, I knew who the president was, I knew the symbolism of the flag (fifty stars for the states and the thirteen stripes for the colonies) and a handful of other basic stuff...

But honestly if I'm not mistaken I was still learning to read in kindergarten. So I wasn't quite cracking gender theories at the time, nor contemplating complex social issues.

Woke culture?

Hell, back then we still had mandated naps!

I miss those days.

[skirted84]

P6 is NOT equivalent of Year 6, it Year 5 (9-10).

Suspect its not the only inaccuracy in this Daily Fail article.

[rode_kater]

- and primary schools should avoid politics.

I'm not sure about this. Children are not deaf. They see the news, they browse the internet, they have questions. I think it's good that students at school get a chance to discuss topics that are current in politics, in an age appropriate way of course. They have questions, and they deserve answers. One of the goals of school is to teach them to think rather than make assumptions.

You may want to keep children away from politics, but politics will not stay away from children. It's better to help them understand.

(You can replace "politics" with drugs, sex, etc if you like)

[Stu]

You may want to keep children away from politics, but politics will not stay away from children. It's better to help them understand.

Every totalitarian state that has ever existed thought the same - it's better to "help them understand". In other words, the state (through the school) controls the narrative and children will "understand" what the state wants them to believe.

No. This is sinister. We must never allow schools or the state to indoctrinate primary school children like that. Once children enter their mid-teens, then they can be presented with the arguments and they are assumed old enough to possess the critical faculties to challenge political views. Until then, children should not be exposed to such views while at school.

I know children have access to all kinds of material on the Internet, but nobody expects them to trust in or believe everything online, but they should be able to have faith in what is inculcated into them at school.

[Bodycon]

Every totalitarian state that has ever existed thought the same - it's better to "help them understand". In other words, the state (through the school) controls the narrative and children will "understand" what the state wants them to believe.

This is tin hat stuff and totally wrong in this country and most of the world, N Korea / China maybe. In India they are taught to love cricket, but hate the English, I can understand that (and I am half English ). I have friends who are current / ex teachers both primary and secondary and they are usually up in arms against the local authorities meddling in their day to day work, but have never mentioned being asked to teach in a way that could be described as indoctrination. Given their differing politics and backgrounds one or other would have walked out if that was the case.

The only systemic indoctrination of children comes from the various religions, however neither politics or religion is a subject that is ever going to get consensus so I'll bow out there.

[rode_kater]

No. This is sinister. We must never allow schools or the state to indoctrinate primary school children like that.

Who is talking about indoctrination? Is this what you're thinking of?

Miss: So kids, is there anything you'd like to discuss?

Student 1: Miss, I saw on the internet that in Spain they're asking boys to wear skirts. Isn't that weird?

Miss: I'm sorry, that's a politically sensitive subject, and your parents will be angry if we discuss it. Anything else?

Student 2: Miss, my dad says that all black people are evil, but I don't think you're evil. Why does he say that?

Miss: I'm sorry, that's a politically sensitive subject, and your parents will be angry if we discuss it. Anything else?

Student 3: Miss, I saw some people on TV attacking the White House, what's going on?

Miss: I'm sorry, that's a politically sensitive subject, and your parents will be angry if we discuss it. Anything else?

Student 4: Miss, why does Billy have two mom's?

Miss: I'm sorry, that's a politically sensitive subject, and your parents will be angry if we discuss it. Anything else?

If you want to bring up a generation of uncritical, uninformed children who are afraid to ask questions, that sounds to me exactly the way to achieve it.
It's not about indoctrination, it's about letting the kids ask questions, asking why they say things and to hear other points of view.

Also, if teaching children to sing the national anthem isn't indoctrination, what is?

[Kirbstone]

As I understand the word Indoctrination' , it's teaching people to accept a set of rules uncritically. Open to all sorts of interpretations, no doubt, but all of us are indoctrinated from birth, first by our parents, then by teachers, then by peer groups. By peer groups I mean people engaging in group or team activities, be it sport or music or drama or games or whatever. We are constantly learning new rules.

Identity/nationality/religion. All subjects for indoctrination.

Also language. As a baby one needs to be 'indoctrinated' in one's mother tongue. Other means of communication come later, of course.

As a child, garments to wear are given/presented by parents or guardians and again, class or peer group example is a major factor in securing acceptance of e.g. skirts

Tom